Val: [00:00:00] Senior Coroner Joanne Kersley said Rochdale Borough Wide Housing were not proactive and asked how in the UK in 2020 does a two-year-old child die as a result of exposure to mould. 

INTRO MUSIC WITH LYRICS: Stories, Labels, Misconceptions NHS remains a blessing Created in 1948 We want it to remain great A podcast where we share our stories Explore solutions in all their glories, they say it's broken, but it's not done with your host Val Barrett, Dr Jeremy Anderson 

Jeremy: Welcome to Stories, Labels, [00:01:00] and Misconceptions. My name is Jeremy Anderson. 

Val: I'm Val Barrett. 

This is part two of housing and health. The hidden dangers of mould.

Whoosh Sound Effect

Val: So, it's just carry-on from the little boy. And I really do hope I'm giving him justice by pronouncing his name correctly.

Val: His name was Awaab Ishak. Please forgive me if I've got that wrong; I really, really sorry. So, we know that London Tonight highlighted that his family was living in a house full of mould. What followed was he was age 2, Awaab was age 2, and he died from a respiratory condition caused by exposure to mould.

Val: At his Rochdale home. That's what the inquest found, and the housing and health secretary said new guidance, because this is what happens [00:02:00] new guidance would come in summer. So, it comes after a coroner asked the government. To take action to prevent future deaths because we know this won't be the last, we know.

Val: So, the inquest was also heard that Awaab's father repeatedly raised the issue since 2017 for three years. So, can you imagine the three years you are saying the same thing over and over again? And that was to a housing association, Rochdale borough-wide housing. They told him to paint over it, that's the usual spill, isn't it?

Val: Go and paint over the mould. But as we know, Awaab died in 2020. So in June of [00:03:00] 2020, the family contacted solicitors and initiated a claim over the reoccurring mould. But policy meant any repairs would not be done until an agreement had been reached. The family said they had no doubt at all we were treated this way because we are not from this country and less aware of how the system in the UK works.

Val: I can assure you, sir, I was born in this country. There's many of us born here that still don't know how the system works. Trust me. And the senior coroner, Joanne Kersley. Said that RBH, which is Rochdale borough ride housing, were not proactive.

Jeremy: Right. 

Val: And yeah, and asked how in the UK in [00:04:00] 2020, does a 2-year-old child die as a result of exposure to mould? In Britain, but following her damning conclusions, cause she really was damning and that was really good. She asked the government to address the fact it's housing, health and safety rating system.

Val: This is the line that the housing and safety rating system does not reflect. Remember that does not reflect the known risks of damp and mould to health. Now, I'm not a damp and mould expert. I'm not a doctor, but even my brain can. Say, if you live in damp and mould, the likelihood is you're going to get sick. [00:05:00] 

Val: Do you know what I mean, Jeremy? Yeah, of course. It's like it's needed to be written. Anyway, let me carry on. She also raised how the private landlord sector does not have access to the housing ombudsman for their complaints to be investigated independently. Don't forget. People think this only happens in the social sector.

Val: It doesn't. It's just as bad as a private rented sector. And often enough, when people complain, they're given that, no-fault eviction, I think it's called. 

Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: And they have to leave. So, people tend not to complain. So, in providing this response to the report. This is what government says we offer because, of course, they do. Our sincere condolences to Awaab Ishak's family and [00:06:00] emphasise the government's commitment to addressing the matters of concern raised by the coroner.

Val: The matter of concern identified in the report as follows. As we know, the previous report, how, anyone can forget this? We're going to give them a little grace here. They forgot in the previous report, or their decent home standard, to write the word damp and mould.

Val: Come on now, yeah. You can't blame them for that. So, you know, you've got to actually write the word, they, yeah. It's nothing there about common sense or it, you've got to write that word. You've got to practically instruct these people. You've got to nanny them.

Val: Treat them like babies and say, look, no, they should be living in damp and mob because hey, guess what? They get sick. And if they're, [00:07:00] if they already have a health condition or they're very young or very old, which is vulnerable, the likelihood is the worst possible outcome is they may die. And it seems like it has to be written down.

Val: So, a 2006 document, a decent home, definition and guidance for implementation. does not give any consideration to the issue of damp and mould because we never stated that, of course it didn't state that, nor does it provide any guidance as to the need for a property to be adequately ventilated.

Val: So, you could build a property without windows. 

Jeremy: Basically.

Val: Hopefully, this won't happen again, but we know that it probably will. We always lead with [00:08:00] you know that word- this is my most hated word when we look at words apart from the word social. I hate the word social. I hate the word hindsight. I 

Jeremy: Mean just, yeah, just so that understand the situation. So this poor family comes to the UK. They're in social housing. They don't know how the system works, but they've got mould in their flat, and they complain about it. The because they're in a private accommodation, they don't have access to an ombudsman.

Speaker: No. They're in housing. 

Jeremy: So, they don't have access to an ombudsman, but they probably wouldn't even know about the ombudsman because, again, they weren't from here. They don't know how the system works. So, what they do is they go and get solicitors to try to get some action.

Val: No. Let me correct you. We do have access to the ombudsman. It's in private. sector that doesn't because the decent home standard does only applies to social housing. It doesn't apply to private. And I [00:09:00] think whether or not they knew how the system works, because the majority of us don't, you've done what everyone would have done.

Jeremy: Yeah, 

Val: You didn't sit quietly. You went there, and you complained, and you raised this issue. 

Jeremy: Okay. It says 

Val: For three years. 

Jeremy: Yeah. So, they complained for years, nothing was being done. They went to a solicitor, and the policy is that nothing can be done until the legal matter gets settled.

Speaker: The policy comes 

Jeremy: Right? 

Val: And the reason why it should never have gotten for them to go to a solicitor. After three years, he should never have got to that place. 

Jeremy: Yeah.

Val: The onus is on housing. They are the ones at fault. That's great. Three years. If you can imagine for three years, you've been saying the same thing over and over again. 

Val: You knew it's not right. You must have at some point have gone there and [00:10:00] really made-up noise and thought, why aren't they listening? Why aren't they hearing? Why aren't they respecting? And that's the way it is. And that's the way it is for a lot of us, whether we are born here or not, it's like the, I don't know why they thought a tin of paint would have been survived because I remember.

Val: Before I even had my son, and he's 3,0 when I was in a tower block and I had some mould, she came over, oh, just paint it. She was so flippant, just paint it 

Jeremy: Yeah, 

Val: It's just going to go, that's, and I think it's, it got, it gets to the point where so many people had mould.

Val: So many. Yeah. That they probably couldn't cope. I don't know. But in that situation, I don't know, because I know where I lived, they had to, they had a policy where no one could move. You [00:11:00] could move in the state, but you couldn't move out because everybody wanted to move. And they just couldn't cope, but it didn't need to get this far.

Val: It didn't need to, and it shouldn't have. And I don't think it's going to be the last, I really don't 

Jeremy: Know. 

Val: And even though, yeah, this podcast has been recorded on the 1st of June, it would be interesting to know if Labour get in what their policy is around housing.

Jeremy: You 

Jeremy: Maybe that raises a good question for us to think about: does it really matter which political parties in power or what I suspect is, it really is a question of priority, right? So, you want there to be social housing.

Jeremy: You want. People to not be homeless and for the disabled or elderly to have a place to live and not [00:12:00] suffer. But if you don't want to pay for it, you can't have both, right? If we decide we want this, we also have to be willing to pay for it. If we don't want to pay for it, we have to just admit that 

Val: You mean taxes going up?

Jeremy: Yeah, for some people, nobody wants to talk about that, but I just think to get damp and mould out of the housing stock in this country, it's going to take a significant chunk of money. And either we want to pay for that or we don't. 

Val: You know what? This is what happens when you leave it.

Jeremy: Sure. 

Val: is what happens. 

Jeremy: But it has to be dealt with, or it just gets worse. And if we're not going to deal with it, we have to just admit that we're okay with people being homeless, little kids dying, people with disabilities and conditions dying. Or getting sick because they live in a place with damp and mould 

Val: Or [00:13:00], in some cases, if there's a large amount of properties in a certain area or on a state, it might be cheaper to knock them down and build them up again.

Jeremy: Sure. 

Val: Sometimes that is better, not the bloody things down and build them back new. 

Jeremy: Yeah. But then price in the maintenance when allocating the funds. So, if you can build as many units as you want, but if you don't price in the minutes, then you're stuck with the same problem five years down the road.

Val: I don't know if it's got to do with anything like how old the properties are. I don't know. I don't work in housing. I'm not a builder. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know if I'm new properties. Have this issue, but let me quickly tell you what the housing ombudsman's report was.

Val: According to the housing ombudsman's 2022 [00:14:00] insight report, the final quarter of 2022 saw a 29 per cent increase. In the volume of social housing complaints and inquiries received compared to the same quarter in 2021. So, property condition was the most common type of complaint. We've owned. So, people 

Jeremy: Are complaining more.

Val: Yeah. 51%. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, 

Speaker: So, it could be that it could be two things are the more people are complaining and going through that route of the housing ombudsman, or it's the same number of people.

Speaker: I don't know, but he does say there's an increase. Probably more people are knowing where they can go to complain outside of the people that actually house them. 51%, [00:15:00] that is a lot of property condition and that is a 10 per cent rise from the previous year. Awabb died in 2020. 

Speaker: That increase was after Arab died. Yes. Whether it's because properties were damp or had mould, they are still not listening or doing anything for tenants. So, what this does it highlights a need for reform.

Jeremy: Yeah. Maybe we need to do a follow-up to this and get someone from a charity like Shelter or something. 

Speaker: Yeah. 

Val: So, the most common safety issues. reported by tenants mirrored those who reported problems with their home maintenance.

Val: mould, damp and [00:16:00] condensation, 56%.

Speaker 2: Yeah, 

Val: That's a lot of home insulation, 20 per cent ventilation, 19 per cent electrical wiring, 17%. And when we look at electrical wiring, I had a brand-new wash machine and dryer. And every time I put them both on, it would trip the wire and the phone housing. They're saying to me perhaps one of them is broken or something.

Val: So, I got my insurance people to come out, checked everything. Nope. Everything's fine. It's this, it's their switch. It's. Them. So, I called them back. First of all, the first said to me, I have too many appliances. [00:17:00] 

Val: I have too many appliances in my home. I said I've got a washing machine, a dryer, fridge, freezer, a microwave, air fryers. I have normal kitchen appliances, and they'd said to me I have too many, so I cannot run my washing machine and my dryer at the same 

Val: Time.

Val: It just flips a switch. Yeah. And when you think about it, even though they come around and do a gas safety check cause they have to. things have to go wrong in order for legislation to act, for things to get better for us.

Val: And every year, of course, they do the gas safe check because they've got no choice. That's not because they want to spend the money. They have no choice. But I [00:18:00] don't know if they've ever checked their electrical wiring. Because electricity is just as dangerous as gas. 

Jeremy: Certainly.

Jeremy: Yeah. And when these lots and things were built, I'm sure the electrical standards were not the same as they are now. And certainly, people probably, I suppose what you were told you had too many appliances is probably when these spots were built, people didn't have a lot of appliances.

Jeremy: So the electrical isn't built for that. But of course our lifestyles are changing. Technology advances, we need more power. Most people didn't have computers when these thoughts were built, either. And so we have all sorts of things that draw power that these, that our infrastructure wasn't necessarily designed for.

Jeremy: So it's not surprising that you're tripping the switch. 

Val: But don't forget, even appliances have changed. So these appliances are getting more bells and whistles on 

Jeremy: All of that draws more power. 

Val: Yes. I don't know, but they're coming with more bells and whistles and half the time.

Val: You don't use all the [00:19:00] bells and whistles. 

Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: And you think to yourself, those are the ones that break down more. Because there's so many things going on. So I try and get one that hasn't got too many bells and whistles. I don't need Bluetooth. I wouldn't be out and connect my washing machine or dryer via Bluetooth.

Val: So, I try not to, cause all you want it to do, you want it to wash clothes. 

Val: You want 

Val: Your washing machine to wash clothes.

Val: You want your dryer to dry. Basically 

Speaker 4: it's 

Val: Anything else that's up to you, but that's basically what. They should be for don't need the bells don't need the whistles because my electricity box cannot cope. And one of these days, I grew up in, I grew up in the seventies where power cut went, we'd have a power cut and you get the candles.

Val: Can you imagine getting a candle [00:20:00] now? Can you imagine that? I think that's dangerous. You when you think about it. And the power 

Jeremy: Goes out putting a candle on? Sorry, what's dangerous about that? You could trip 

Speaker: up and it could fall and land on cloth and burn up the place. Anything can happen. 

Speaker: But we didn't think of that back in the seventies. 

Speaker: Lot. 

Speaker 6: time, 

Val: Hey, that's how it is, but there's always complaints. And since that report. The complaints are just going up, and I'm sure the private rented sector, people forget that's larger than the social.

Jeremy: Of course. 

Val: It is. It's a much larger sector, but we seem to have more legislation when it comes to social housing and private, but I think things are going to change.

Val: I think they are because private is always going to be here, and it's just going to get, it's just going to get. [00:21:00] Bigger and they know that they have to update this law to include the private sector. Yeah, I 

Jeremy: I think so. 

Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: We get. That's my last word. It does. It shouldn't, but it does. I have enjoyed today's session, 

Speaker 2: Yeah. I have. Even though we've gone around 

Speaker: the, we've gone around the houses. 

Speaker 2: Yeah. 

Jeremy: Yeah. 

Speaker: Did that miss you? Did that joke? Just miss you 

Jeremy: gonna run the houses? 

Jeremy: Yeah, I think I don't know the reference talking about housing.

Jeremy: Oh yeah. But going around the houses, is that an expression? 

Val: Oh God, I forgot you. Yeah, you're Canadian. Everyone is Canadian. A certain phrase that we say in the UK goes above this man's head. 

Jeremy: Okay. But 

Val: When I said we went around the houses, [00:22:00] we talked about HS2. 

Jeremy: Yes, I know 

Val: That. We talked about social care and health.

Val: We talked about police officers. What else did we talk about? 

Jeremy: Oh we, we talked about the warm housing prescription. 

Val: Oh, that's housing. This episode was about housing, but the saying is we went around the houses to get there. 

Jeremy: Way to run the houses to get there. Okay. Okay. 

Val: Does it make sense?

Val: A little 

Jeremy: Play on words there. Okay. At my expense. Okay. 

Val: Listen, if you're living here, you have to embrace everything about our culture. 

Jeremy: I do. I embrace everything. I'm on it. Yeah. Okay. Thanks Val. That's great. 

WHOOSH SOUND EFFECT

Val: And this is a part of the show. Where we get to choose our very own story, label, and misconception from this week's episode.

Jeremy: What's the story, label, and misconception that stood out for you? 

Val: My story is about the little boy, Arup. As we know, he was two years old when he died because he was living in a house of mold. So, even though his family complained for years, he was still living in a house of mold. So anyway, my label for this.

Is that the family where I think the father said, paraphrasing here, that he didn't understand the rules? I think in the UK, because he wasn't born here. [00:24:00] And the misconception to that is whether you're bored here or not, they still don't listen, but I can understand why he said that. Yeah. But I think. In housing, it's hard to get repairs done.

It really is. But when you have something like that is a potential killer, it is. The housing officer might as well have just got in their car and ran them over. It is a potential killer. Yeah. But because. They're not in the car revving it up to run them over. They probably didn't see it like that. And I'm going to add a bit on because even though after the coroner's report and the government updated their legislation or [00:25:00] whatever it was, they added the word mold.

Now, you would think in the normal world where we live, as an adult, that when you work in a particular profession, that you wouldn't need to be told that mold is dangerous if not treated. And I think it says a lot about us that we have to be so specific. So, are we going to wait for the next one, which might be.

I don't know, something else, because we know asbestos, because back in the day, they used to use a lot of that. And then eventually, we got to realised that brought a lot of problems. How bad are things going to get for them to realize that X, Y, Z? Yeah, is a potential killer for the [00:26:00] very young. Don't forget he, he was two years old.

So his lungs, his chest. And somebody very old or somebody already got a health condition. So, yeah, sad as it is, that is mine. Jeremy, tell us what your story label for this episode is, please. 

Jeremy: Yeah, the story for me is really this example of the Canadian program where they gave housing to people first. And then with it, with the expectation that people could make their life better after that, and that was a difference.

And I think the label with that is really about homeless or homelessness. What does it mean? What? Why is someone homeless? And do you need to fix your problems in order to not be homeless? Or do you need to just not be homeless? And then you, it's a lot easier to fix your problem, right? We already said [00:27:00] before that you could have a problem.

Val: You could be a drug addict or whatever, but given a home that takes away another problem. 

Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: And then if you're in a home, you it's easier to get support, is easier to go on and get a job, get trained or whatever. But everybody needs that base. Everybody needs to be able to, because you can't have a bank account.

You need the first rung of the ladder, Maslow's hierarchy needs, in order to progress in society. That also comes with. Social care and health support in the community right now, as we know, we have social care and health crisis and we have a housing crisis and all these things go hand in hand. [00:28:00] 

Jeremy: Yeah, and I, I think the misconception is that people should be able to fix their problems and. that will help them be able to house themselves. That's a misconception. I think what the program showed is that it works the other way around. 

Val: Yeah. It's like what they used to say back in the day, and I'm going off script, but pull yourself up by your own bootstraps. Yeah. Guess what? The homeless man or homeless woman on the street doesn't have a pair of bootstraps. Yeah, they don't have the boots to pull them up, so you need to give them that just because your life may have been slightly easier. Not saying that you haven't person. A hasn't had any. Issues or whatever, but because your life has gone the way it's gone, you think, why can't everybody else do it? And I think that's the wrong attitude to have.

It [00:29:00] really is because everybody deals with their own issues differently. And everybody needs support at some stage in their life to get to where they can buy their boots and they can pull up the straps with help 

Jeremy: Agreed.

WHOOSH SOUND EFFECT

Val: Brilliant. Thank you. I have enjoyed our episode, and it'd be nice to know if you agree with either Jeremy or myself about our choice of stories, labels, or misconceptions.

Jeremy: Bye-bye. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and even leave us a review on iTunes.

It really does [00:30:00] help.