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INTRO RAP: Stories Labels Misconceptions NHS remains a blessing created in 1948. We want it to remain great. A podcast to share our stories explore solutions in their glories they say its broken but it not done with your hosts Val Barrett and Dr Jeremy Anderson 

Val: Welcome to Stories, labels, and Misconceptions with Val Barrett.

Dr Jeremy: Dr. Jeremy Anderson. 

Val: This week we are looking at Angela Rainer Class Power and Politics in Westminster. Angela Rainer has stepped down as Deputy Prime Minister of the Labor government. Her stories always [00:01:00] stood out.

A working class woman who left school at 16. Was a single mom. Became a care worker and rose to one of the highest offices in the country. Today, Jeremy and I want to ask, what does her journey tell us about class power and politics in Westminster? From a psychological point of view, does it matter who our leaders are and where they come from?

Dr Jeremy: there's a lot there. The first thing I wanted to ask

Val: Uhhuh, 

Dr Jeremy: how does her story resonate with you? 

Val: Wow. 

Dr Jeremy: She's a single mom. She has a disabled son. 

Val: Yes. 

Dr Jeremy: And,

Val: yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: And she started as a carer.

Val: She was caring for the elderly. She wasn't caring for her son. For 

Dr Jeremy: her son. Yeah. 

Val: Okay. So she had a job as a paid carer. There's a difference between paid and unpaid. 

Dr Jeremy: [00:02:00] Okay. 

Val: She's from the north. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah, 

Val: I'm from the Midlands. I wasn't raised in a council house single family because my mother passed away when I was seven or eight. My father always worked. We knew, the meaning of work because he was on his own, me and my sisters, always had jobs, we'd have a paper round in the morning paper around when we came home from school. And I remember two of my sisters, they also had Saturday jobs in the summer holidays we'd go strawberry picking. To earn our own money. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: The label when we talk about labels, every time they mention her name they're working class. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Every time they mention elon Musk. The words riches man. Yeah. Why do we always have to put a label in front of someone's name? Is it to [00:03:00] remind us of where they're from or to remind them suppose

Dr Jeremy: it could be a bit of both.

Val: Because even though she was Deputy Prime Minister and deputy leader of the Labour Party itself. Yes. Which is a different role. Yes. Her role is the NEC National Executive Committee and its members vote that position in. 

Dr Jeremy: I think she stepped down from both positions now

Val: and she stepped down from both.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah.

Val: . Still, after reaching the dizzy Heights of where someone like her should never have reached. When you look at Westminster, you think of the old boys Network they all went to either Oxford, Cambridge, eaton, they were that top percent. . So UP pops this woman. Who says it as it is, she says she's mouthy straight talking. She's got an accent. A [00:04:00] regional accent,

Dr Jeremy: which is important

Val: yes. And she's from the north. Single mom with an accent backstory. She doesn't have a degree. She never went to Oxford, never went to Cambridge. She never even finished school. So I can imagine there was some in there that thought, who does she think she is?

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: But she held her own. Whether at the dispatch box running her department. From what I've read, she was very well liked. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: She was just one of those people that made other people from the, same background look to her and say, if you can get there, I can get there. Which is important, 

Dr Jeremy: inspiring. 

Val: We always say, you can't be what you can't see.

Dr Jeremy: For people listening later or outside the uk, what happened? Why has she stepped down

Val: oh, it's complicated. 

Dr Jeremy: Maybe we should go [00:05:00] through that. My understanding is she was supposed to pay a certain amount of stamp duty.

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: When you purchase a house. In this country, you pay a tax called stamp duty. She paid 30,000 pounds in stamp duty. On a second property. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: She should have paid 70,000 pounds. She was short 40,000 pounds, 

Val: I think at the time, her original home in, Stockton?

Dr Jeremy: I think it's Ashton. I was looking this ash in 

Val: Ashton. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah, 

Val: because her son is under 18, she is still the appointee. And I think it would've been different if he was over 18. So yes, the trust, because her son. Got left with disabilities something that happened in the NHS compensation was paid. I have a friend who went through something similar and the money goes in [00:06:00] trust. 

Dr Jeremy: Yes. 

Val: For the child. 

Dr Jeremy: Yes. 

Val: She sold her share in the house to the trust. So essentially she got money from that compensation,

Dr Jeremy: Does that make sense? Yes. The rate of stamp duty you pay is different on your primary residence versus the second or third property. And so I think she thought that because she sold her stake in. That property. She could claim this new one as her primary residence and pay the lower rate. 

Val: But then why would your primary residence be down in Hove if your constituents are in Ashton under Lyne In greater Manchester. It doesn't make sense. 

Dr Jeremy: The understanding is she was supposed to have gotten specialist legal advice, which she didn't do. When this came out, investigative journalism revealed this she referred herself to an ethics independent advisor.

Val: Yeah. Most [00:07:00] MPs will have. A home in their constituency. And also, depending how far they live from Parliament, they'll have somewhere to stay in London. If they are not a London MP

Dr Jeremy: Yes. 

Val: Okay. So she had the grace and Favor apartment because she was Deputy Prime Minister. Okay. But then she brought a place in Hove. Nothing wrong with that. You are entitled to buy homes. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: But the issue, there's a complex issue as you said the tax around the home in Ashton Under Lyne some said it didn't smell good, that she sold it to the trust, her share of the house. I don't know if she realized at the time, because her son was under 18, she would still be the appointee. It would still be her home. Do you see what I mean? That's an issue anyone like [00:08:00] myself who's a carer, like I am the nominated appointee for my son. And as much as you want to sympathize there are millions of us 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah.

Val: In the same boat. Have to remember that. Yeah. It's not just one person. There are millions of us and the rest of us have to be reliant on social housing. To house our children or sometimes they're taken away and put into an adult. Institution.

Dr Jeremy: Even if she sells her stake, it goes in trust to her son. Yeah. 

Val: No. That means he's got a home. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah.

Val: So carers can go into that home, 

Dr Jeremy: But legally she can't claim. He pays the lower rate of stamp duty 'cause that's his home and she's gonna pay the lower rate. Cause this is her home.

Val: No, he's under 18. He's a dependent. . From what I understand, he needs round [00:09:00] the clock support. He needs an appointee. 

Dr Jeremy: She's referred herself to an ethics advisor. That person found she hadn't met the highest standards of conduct. For that reason, she resigned and Starmer accepted her resignation. There's been a cabinet reshuffled, so she's now a back bench reshuffle

Val: Deck chairs moved around. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: I do feel for her because I don't think she's a horrible person. But when you were on the opposite benches, screaming at the Tories saying they should resign when they got caught doing the same thing.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Remember, you are gonna be watched. They're gonna want to get you. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. And since they have she's resigned. 

Val: Got her. I thought the interview she did with Beth Rigby, I didn't like it. 

Dr Jeremy: Didn't see that one. 

Val: I didn't like the interview. Out of all the politicians, I thought Angela Rayner would've just [00:10:00] fallen on her sword. She sounded like any other politician,

Dr Jeremy: what did she say in the interview?

Val: It sounded like a lot of excuses. The interview was very soft. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Beth didn't go hard on her. She was tearful. Was it because she got found out? I like her. She was one of those that you thought, okay, we've got someone in there that's not ai, that's not a robot.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah.

Val: We've got someone that has actually lived 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Experienced hardship. Okay. That wasn't born with a silver spoon. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah.

Val: That hasn't got land. Yeah. She had to climb that ladder by herself. She didn't have a named friend to bring her up. Do you see what I mean? 

Dr Jeremy: So you looked her, that background resonates with you and then,

Val: and I'm sure others.

Dr Jeremy: So for the public, the situation is, I [00:11:00] like this person. This person, is like me. But also she broke the rules. That's uncomfortable. 

Val: I think she was good for labour it was good to have somebody like her on the front bench, whether you like her or not. Government needs to reflect the society they serve. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: But then when it does, they try and bring that person down. Why do they have to keep saying. Angela Rayner working class background. I just don't understand why she has to walk around with that tag. It's not a bad tag, but why constantly all the time. Why did Cameron have a tag? Did George Osborne have a tag? Why does she have to be tagged all the time? Look how many years Diane Abbott has been there. Look how many years Angela Rayner has been there, but [00:12:00] still that tag persists. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: So perhaps they need more people like Angela Rayner Parliament and people that have lived, probably struggled, that know what time of day it is to balance the others that don't you see what I mean? I don't expect all politicians to have come from a council state. That's not going to happen. But if we want them to reflect the society they serve and not themselves, what are they doing?

To bring other people up. What are they doing? When I look at. Some of the politicians that actually come in the new elections realize, oh, she's related to so and [00:13:00] oh, her dad is so and oh, now I can see why she got in.

So there still is a barrier. even though Angela Rayner got in, it doesn't mean the glass ceiling is broken. For working class people to get into parliament. It doesn't, 

Dr Jeremy: This gets back to the core question does it matter that people have a working class background the whole point of democratic government is the idea that you have. People who represent you. Yeah. It's a representative government. You're saying this person in parliament is from this part of the country. And they represent the people here. And what we want is for someone, we want our representative to be like us, at least in some way. Obviously everyone's different. You can't be Yeah. Exactly. Like you. But you want them to be like you, on important things. You don't want a government where it's, like a small elite group of people who are always the leader.[00:14:00] 

Val: It seems to be always that case, 

Dr Jeremy: which seems to be like what we have, right? When that happens, it seems less representative than we would want. 

Val: Depends on the leader. Because I was thinking before we started recording when we look at Nigel Farage, he's not from a working class background. But people love him. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: He's getting bigger 

Dr Jeremy: Absolutely. He's, yeah, 

Val: he's growing. Yeah. People love him because he's got that charisma. He's got that flare. He's a person, you can go down the pub, have a pie, a joke, a smoke with, he speaks the language. He's telling their story even though it's not his story. He's speaking on behalf of a group. Because yeah, they feel like their voices aren't being heard. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: They feel labour and the Tories are not listening not understanding them. At first he was a one man [00:15:00] band, always there. He always wanted to come outta the EU never wavered which is rare. Yeah. He never waved, didn't, he didn't care who said that it wasn't right, and I think that's another thing people like, about him. He just says it. 

Dr Jeremy: What we started talking about is hypocrisy. 

Val: Yeah.

Dr Jeremy: So we expect our leaders in government to execute and uphold the law. Now we have someone who didn't follow the rules. That seems like hypocrisy, especially if she was in the opposite benches, calling for other people to resign. 

Val: Exactly.

Dr Jeremy: So that's a matter of hypocrisy. But then when it comes to someone like Nigel Farage we don't necessarily expect him to. Come from the same background we're not demanding he be authentic to his own experience. We're requiring him to take a position 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: To represent people, essentially, to be fake. I guess I was thinking about the big deal in hypocrisy in politics because someone like Nigel Farage needs to [00:16:00] be hypocritical he can't demand authenticity if he's doing something different. An ability for a politician to change the way they speak 

Val: that he's always spoken that way. I, as far as I know, that's just the way he is. 

Dr Jeremy: You can signal values. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: Even if it's not your background or your position.

Val: Yes.

Dr Jeremy: And politicians who can do that. They can be flexible, they can change their mind. They have competing demands

Val: only a few politicians can get away with that. 

Dr Jeremy: So it seems like there's a kind of hypocrisy that's okay, but a kind that's not okay.

Val: I think people will forgive a politician like Farage if he made a mistake because he's speaking what people want does that make sense? Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: That's motivated reasoning, right? If he's saying something they like him. Yes.

Val: So's a connection. To them, he speaks like them. He's one of them. Boris Johnson was another we all knew it wasn't, if his [00:17:00] downfall was going to happen, it's when 

Dr Jeremy: yeah. Assumed a persona, right?

Val: Oh yes, of course. But worked to appeal to people.

Dr Jeremy: He was inauthentic, but in a way that gave him a sense of authenticity. Loved, they liked it. So they said he's authentic, but he wasn't. It was a caricature. It was a persona.

Val: Of course, but did it matter? 

Dr Jeremy: No, it didn't matter.

Val: That's the weird part when he really. Messed up. Yeah. He's one of those politicians, I dunno if Labrooke Grove. One of the examples, I'm going to give one end of Labrooke Grove. You've got a lot of wards there's poverty, right? And then along one road, you walk along and then you are walking towards Holland Park. You've got a different set of people boris Johnson can walk along that road and talk to everybody. Do you see what I mean? 

Dr Jeremy: Because he can change his manner.

Val: Yes. He's that type 

Dr Jeremy: yeah. 

Val: Tony Blair could [00:18:00] do that as well. Kier, no. Flat No, 

Dr Jeremy: because he doesn't try. Or he tries and it doesn't work.

Val: No. Because he is dry. I'm just saying the truth. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: I can honestly say I don't know him. I don't know what he stands for. I could be missing the point. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: I don't know. He is still a mystery to me. 

Dr Jeremy: He's often described as that, 

Val: why. 

Dr Jeremy: He's described as technocratic. That's the label we give people. Who they understand the policy or their inner workings of government or how things work, but they're not really showman 

Val: Think about it. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: When you've got reform saying what they're saying. Where's Keir Starmar 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. He's not in front of the cameras. There's nothing. The microphones, he's not performing.

Val: Do you know one of the worst things he did. I think he thinks he has to, as they say out Farage, forget that [00:19:00] no one can out Farage, they ain't gonna happen. Because it won't be authentic. It won't be when he came out, when you are on social me media and they always say, repurpose your content.

He repurposed an old Enoch Powell Rivers of Blood speech. into Ireland of Strangers. That was the worst thing he did. And he's a lawyer. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: For him to say. He'd never heard of that speech. I had to look at him with a side eye and think, I don't believe you. As I was growing up, I heard about that speech. I haven't trained to be a lawyer. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: I heard about that speech. 

Dr Jeremy: Yes. I did not hear about that speech, , I didn't grow up here, but I know, what you're saying [00:20:00] is for someone who's grown up here, you'd have to be living under a rock to not have heard about that speech.

Val: Especially seen he was in law. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: I just found it weird. The people that wrote his speech didn't know. Throughout politics, whatever country there were some iconic speeches. Martin Luther King's speech. John F. Kennedy. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Enoch Powell, off the top of my head that iconic speeches that just go through time I was shocked that he said he didn't, I would've respected him more if he said I did, I made a mistake, but they never put their hands up. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: And I think that pisses people off. It's like he's not human. It's like he's AI gone wrong. Not AI in a good way. 

Dr Jeremy: But if Farrage had done something similar, would it have landed differently?[00:21:00] 

Val: He would've worded it differently because he has said some things. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: But labour hasn't come back on that. No rebuttal. No going out on television saying what he said isn't right. I'd like to say, the contribution that immigrants have made, his speech started with Ireland as strangers. I don't know the people up the road, but they're born here, so most of us are strangers. Until you say hello, we're strangers. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: And then at the end it talks about my family's contribution. That should have been at the beginning of your speech. That should have been at the start, not at the end.

I don't know who his speech writers are. I'm not a speech writer. But the layout. If someone listens to the speech, the layout of his speech just seemed a bit of cut and paste. That speech is going to last as [00:22:00] well. For the wrong reasons.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: And when reform is on the trail with their big megaphone labour, you have to have a bigger megaphone. Right now they don't even have a microphone. My prediction is reform do have a chance. Walking into number 10. Forget about the Tories. That's another disaster. She's ridiculous. She doesn't even know her ethnicity and background she's a fool. She needs to go. She will go. It's just when. When the back benches wake up. They could be plotting now, but she will go. labour, who are the ones in government now. They need to wake up. If he can't do it send someone that can. Right now you see what I like. Over the pond. Their [00:23:00] US elections, you know when they have their conferences? 

Dr Jeremy: Mega 

Val: what? 

Dr Jeremy: The party conferences.

Val: They had a space for influencers. That's the way we're going now. labour, is not moving with the times. The way they deliver their politics. The way they reaching out is not hitting, not anymore. Those days are over. Yeah. We need someone that's got a bit of, dare I say it, a bit of sized. Yeah, 

Dr Jeremy: There's another contrast there that I thought was interesting for someone who consumes a lot of US politics.

You have someone like Angela Rayner who's been accused of wrongdoing. Referred herself to the ethics advisor. The ethics advisor said, it's not a crime, but it's not the highest standard. So now she's resigned.

Val: What did you expect her to do?

Dr Jeremy: If she was taking the Donald Trump [00:24:00] approach, she would have responded with I did that because I'm smart. 

Val: I think the only other person that could do that and carry it off is probably Farage. Nobody else can do it. 

Dr Jeremy: Why can Trump and Farage get away with stuff other politicians can't? 

Val: The way they come across. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: The things they say, even though none of them are from working class backgrounds. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Both got money. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: But they're people,

Dr Jeremy: appeal to the working class. Exactly. 

Val: Exactly. So the question is, 

Dr Jeremy: yeah. 

Val: Does it matter who your leaders are and where they come from? Yes and no. Does it matter who your leaders are? Yes. It matters. And where they come and where they come from? No.

Dr Jeremy: It matters for labour. It doesn't matter for reform.

Val: If they had the right leader. [00:25:00] It wouldn't matter if he'd gone to Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard, it wouldn't matter.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Boris Johnson went to Oxford and Eaton. And people loved him. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: It's not where they're from, it's the person. 

Dr Jeremy: They did forgive a lot of Boris Johnson. What's unique about Trump is if he's hypocritical or violates a rule

Val: yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: That's not a fault. He flips that as his authenticity or his strength. He's just it is that whole thing of, I did it 'cause. I didn't pay my taxes 'cause I'm smart. He said that at the debate 

Val: with Hillary.

Dr Jeremy: He never claims the moral high ground. He never claims he's done everything right. He knows he can't do that. So he just says you shouldn't that's for losers and suckers. 

Val: And another thing when he said about building the wall the same people that will argue, you live behind your wall. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: It's true. People want charisma. Whether that's the best [00:26:00] thing or not, it doesn't matter. That's how it is now. Gray, dry, rusty, boring steel. That's out. We've got to stop thinking how politics was that's gone.

We new age now it's different. Yeah. And I don't think, I know LA labor don't seem to be, there was it on the back foot? I, they don't seem to be grabbing hold of the way things are done in this century a lot more people are getting involved. They care about where they live, whether it's immigration, the NHS, pensions. Benefits, Labour need to change their messenger and message. Because it ain't touching the sites. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. It's not What do you think the message needs to be?

Val: The message needs to be [00:27:00] authentic. Right now we cannot have three Nigel Farage, one Nigel Farage, and two Nigel Farage tribute bands. You can't have that. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: We need an alternative. Yeah. That's a whole point why we have labour and Tory, but because they can see how Nigel Farage is getting bigger up the poles they're jumping on his bandwagon. Honestly. Kemi Kizzi it's like she's trailing behind him when he said he's going to deport the men who come in on boats. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: But not the women. She's going to deport the women, so she's trading on him, but trying to get one step better.

Dr Jeremy: They're missing the point of the story, like the appeal of Trump and increasingly the appeal of Farage, the story is one of victory. Trump was always about, you're we're gonna be winning. You're gonna [00:28:00] be winning so much, you're gonna be tired of winning so much. So the stories is victory. Whereas I think labour and to some extent the conservatives Yeah. Are trying to be, and certainly the Democrats in the US we're trying to be a story of virtue. Like we're better people we're moral, we care about people more. It's virtue. And Trump followers are like, screw that. We just wanna win. It leaves you open when your people violate the rules. Yeah. Now they look like him Hypocrites. Whereas trumpet, Farage, they never claimed to follow the rules. They're just in it to win. 

Val: Exactly. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: We need someone in government to show up his weaknesses. Because right now it just seems to be about immigration. What does he think about defense? NHS? Education? Special needs housing? Transport? 

Dr Jeremy: [00:29:00] Yeah. 

Val: The thing that Labour and the Tories have got going for them, they have experienced people on their team that have been in government. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah.

Val: farrage has never been in government. But that doesn't mean it's a bad thing. In 97, Tony Blair and his team were never in government, but they were ready. They just went and you didn't get all the U-turns or the stupidness 

Dr Jeremy: yeah, that's been a huge problem buying their 

Val: glasses and buying their clothes.

Dr Jeremy: My, my suspicion is Farage will not have a plan to deal with those things. He won't be talking about, 

Val: don't underestimate, he won't 

Dr Jeremy: talking about special needs transportation or housing. He's just talking about,

Val: nah, 

Dr Jeremy: I'm here

Val: i'm gonna 

Dr Jeremy: you are wrong. Okay. 

Val: I'm gonna be opposite. 

Dr Jeremy: Okay. 

Val: I think he's a lot smarter than people give him credit. There's a difference between intelligence and smart. Do you think he'll be ready? He's smart, he's gonna make sure, 'cause I think he's learned a lot. [00:30:00] From the elections, the council elections where some of the candidates weren't up to par.

So now he's got Nadine, Doris. I think her name is, who's been in government more and more is at the Tory Party. Going to defect is getting more and more people, but they're also going to get ready. I won't be surprised if you've got a training camp. I believe he's going to get ready 'cause he's going to surround himself.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: With the right people. He's smart. 

Dr Jeremy: Do you think the conservatives are going to implode and the right leaning party is gonna be reform. And so British politics will be reform versus labour for the foreseeable future. 

Val: Probably, 

Dr Jeremy: yeah. That's what happened in Canada. 

Val: I also believe we might even have, I don't know if anybody will win outright at the next election. I believe gonna be a hug. [00:31:00] 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. Have we talked about what happened in Canada? 

Val: A bit. 

Dr Jeremy: Probably 20 years ago now there was a similar movement in Canada of social conservatives called the Reform Party. Came out of Western Canada and they were to the right of the Torry party in Canada.

And then when the Torries got wiped out after I think Brian Mulrooney they were completely out of, they were completely demolished. And so at some point. They merged with the Reform Party and they became the Conservative Reform Alliance party which that acronym spelt crap. So they changed that pretty quick.

Val: And 

Dr Jeremy: they just became the Alliance Party. They were Torys plus social conservatives, much more like the old Republican party in the US I suspect if the same thing happens in the uk if the Reform party becomes the conservative party, it will be more socially conservative 

Val: it'll change 

Dr Jeremy: version of conservatism. 

Val: [00:32:00] Yeah. I think the whole landscape is going to change completely. And I think once it's changed, that is it. I don't think labour are ready for that change. They probably think there's no cat in Hell's chance that reform are going to get into number 10. You never know. 

Dr Jeremy: No, it could happen. 

Val: But I believe Angela Rayner will be back. This is embarrassing But if she wants. To, yeah. She can always come back. There's been worse out there that has happened and they've come back.

Dr Jeremy: She's taking her medicine and we'll see what happens in the future.

Val: I remember in, 2000, there was this MP in the labour government under Blair. Never forget her. Estelle Morris. She always said if she doesn't [00:33:00] reach, I can't remember what it was, X, y, z in her department, she will resign. She resigned. Yeah. There's not many like her. She said she was gonna do it and she did it. She didn't come up with excuse. She just did it. Yeah. It was sad because I liked her.

We need more of that. Human beings, we make mistakes. That's just the way we are we're not ai, even though they're saying that AI makes mistakes. We're not super human. And I think Of course, yeah. If you wanna come across better. If you want people to get to know you more, come across a bit more human.

Now he seems like a reactionary politician. He reacts to [00:34:00] things as, and when it happens, they were gonna do oh, what was it? The pip. Remember with the disability? 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Payments. There was a revolt with the back benches. He caved in. That's not a leader. But then in the first place, yeah, this is a thing. Did he bring his party with him? Because I read somewhere that he didn't even know the back benches. 

Dr Jeremy: He doesn't know them. Probably to be an effective leader he needed to have this planned out and understood what people would accept and wouldn't accept before he announces what he's gonna do. 

Val: Yeah. Yeah. Where Blair, if I can remember, he met them in groups in Downing Street. He got to know them. 

Dr Jeremy: So before he came up with a manifesto, he understood where his support was.

Val: And even though Jeremy Corbin voted against the government, [00:35:00] Tony Blair never expelled him. That tells you the difference in personality between somebody like Tony Blair or somebody like . Sir Keir Starmer. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: He immediately, what's they called? The, he doesn't expel them. He what? 

Dr Jeremy: Suspended them. 

Val: He, yeah, he suspends them, and it's like, why You are supposed to be a broad church. Why Keep saying we're a broad church, but when they don't agree with you, you suspend them. That makes no sense find out why they're voting against you. Speak to them. It seems he only cares about the front bench and his friends. 

Dr Jeremy: Right 

Val: when the votes go, you need your back benches. You need them. Your cabinet, your ministers probably always vote the way you want them to vote. Back to 

Dr Jeremy: hypocrisy, right? 

Val: It's about leadership as well. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Yeah. Some [00:36:00] people acknowledge everybody from the doorman to the receptionist, some people don't. And that's how he comes across to me. He does. 

Dr Jeremy: Yep. 

Val: Junkie agrees 

Dr Jeremy: Yes. 

Val: Our resident dog. He could be the nicest guy but all I can say is how he comes across everything's about perception. Politics is about perception. I think the best thing labour can do is get rid of him. I've said it. He's gotta go. Then the question will be. Who should take over? 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah, 

Val: I've got someone 

Dr Jeremy: they just announced David Lammie is gonna be Deputy Prime Minister.

Val: Why do you think he put him as deputy? 

Dr Jeremy: I dunno. He stuck being smart. 

Val: Why do you think he put him as deputy? He's not gonna be leader. He isn't? Oh, 

Dr Jeremy: that is Now it works. The deputy doesn't necessarily become the leader. 

Val: Not necessarily, no. The deputy doesn't always want to be leader. Okay. I've got my [00:37:00] money on Wes, Streeting West. I've always had my money on him. 

Dr Jeremy: Okay. 

Val: We've got to stop being obsessed with, it's gotta be a woman, a person of color. We've got to stop being obsessed with that because I think people 

Dr Jeremy: hate that. Yeah. 

Val: Because when you look at what's there. There's hardly any choice. 

Dr Jeremy: Sure. 

Val: The best politicians ever, but you've got to be a leader. You've got to be able to send that message out there to the people. Not many can. 

Dr Jeremy: I think the message of winning is where we're at. Given the, current political zeitgeist. It has to be about saying, vote for us, we can win. We're gonna win for you. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Do you think, so going back to the working class thing, do you think both parties should have something, I dunno if there's a program or whatever, [00:38:00] that they do reach out to people from. Working class backgrounds to come into Parliament?

Dr Jeremy: Oh, that's a good question. It probably would need to start earlier, right? You can't just say as adults we need a program for people to come into Parliament. It's probably more about, I'm sure they do it, it's probably more about things we do from the beginning to help develop kids and their interests. One thing leads to another. Some sort of program that starts early in life would be helpful. In getting more. I guess authentically representative people into government. I think that would be helpful.

Val: Yeah. But we need people with those backgrounds to be able to send that message out. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: When I was growing up, when you watch the news obsessed with the [00:39:00] news, you didn't have anyone on there with an accent. You didn't,

Dr Jeremy: yeah. And that communicated people with your accent, 

Val: Do I have an accent? 

Dr Jeremy: You don't have an accent? 

Val: I don't. 

Dr Jeremy: No 

Val: You have an accent. 

Dr Jeremy: I have an accent. Yes. You don't have what you would call a regional accent. 

Val: I probably do, but 

Dr Jeremy: yeah. 

Val: That's what most people in the town I'm from say we don't have an accent. Yeah. We 

Dr Jeremy: don't have accent. 

Val: You go away for 20 years. Come back, walk in the town. You'll hear that accent loud. But we've always said, even when I was growing up, why don't we have an accent and Yeah. Yeah. We don't, people in Wamp do. People in Birmingham do. It wasn't until I left. Came to the big smoke, 

Dr Jeremy: Uhhuh 

Val: I went home and was like, oh my God, please don't tell me I sound like that.

When I [00:40:00] listened to my sister, I said, your accent is so broad. I can hear it. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. So all you heard on television was people with an accent? 

Val: Speaking like the Queen's accent. 

Dr Jeremy: Queen's accent 

Val: not overly posh, but they didn't have a regional accent. You couldn't tell, oh, is they from Newcastle, Birmingham. They didn't have that type of accent. So kids at school would've thought, oh, I wanna be a news reader, but I don't sound like that. Or back in the day I don't look like that. Like I said, you don't see yourself, you don't see it. You don't believe that you can be it. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: That's why when I look at these people that are the first of anything, respect to them, whether it's Angela Rayna, Diane Abbott, respect has to be due to [00:41:00] them.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: No matter how you slice it, whether you like Diane Abbott or not, she paved the way for other women of colour. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: She put up with a lot. Unfortunately, she's still putting up with a lot today. But I the way Labour Party has treated her really bad. It's bad. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. The hope would be that, people like her, they blaze the trail and make it easy for other people. 

Val: Yes. 

Dr Jeremy: Don't have to go through all the crap she went through. 

Val: When you look at other places, whether it's the first woman president or prime minister, they probably have a great big picture or a statue of her

Dr Jeremy: yeah. 

Val: All she gets is abuse. You don't have to like her politics, I don't particularly agree with her politics, but I have to remember. For a woman that looks like me she was the [00:42:00] first. Somebody needs to pave the way. Whether it's a first Muslim woman Yeah. The first Sikh person, yeah.

Dr Jeremy: This brings us back to the question you raised at the beginning about why do they always have to mention this and what is that for? And I think, we're landing on a place where we need those firsts. We need those people who are Oh 

Val: Always 

Dr Jeremy: Are unusual or unexpected. We need them to be successful. Strategically, I think in the current political environment with Farage and reform we probably need to de-emphasize that. We don't need to keep saying it. 

Val: Exactly. 

Dr Jeremy: To emphasize winning. While having those firsts, 

Val: it should be normal. 

Dr Jeremy: It should be normal.

Val: That Angela there are at least 20 more of her. There are more women of color. There are a few more Muslim women and men but it shouldn't be the exception it should be normal. 

Oh God, [00:43:00] grief. Now we have another contest or competition, whatever you want to call it. Election. To vote in a new deputy I know who I'll be voting for if he goes for it, because 

Dr Jeremy: you're a party member. So you vote.

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: Okay. 

Val: I have thought many times to leave. But it's like leaving a sinking ship, isn't it? I know, because I'm trying to have that thing on my head. In this country we're into party politics. We don't have a president, so it's not about Starmer, it's about labour. Do I believe in labour's values? Yeah. So I try to hold onto that for dear life. 

Dr Jeremy: How important do you feel like it is for people to focus on the qualities of their local candidate? And you, let's say you have a candidate. But you really don't like your labour candidate. [00:44:00] There's something about them you just don't agree with them

Val: i'd rather not vote. My father always voted differently in a general election to a local election.

Dr Jeremy: Okay. 

Val: General election labour local, he voted for bill cash. He liked bill cash. It's Tory. When he was the MP for Stafford,

Dr Jeremy: yeah. 

Val: Sometimes people vote differently in those. 

Dr Jeremy: Always tried to vote based on the particular candidate involved, because in Canada it's a parliamentary system.

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: So even though there are political parties. You're not electing your leader directly. 

Val: Or the party 

Dr Jeremy: You're electing a local candidate. 

Val: Exactly. 

Dr Jeremy: Goes to represent

Val: I was shocked when us changed. We have, and Chelsea and Fullham, we have a labour, we used to have greg, Hands Tory. Then it changed. I have a feeling it will change again. [00:45:00] You can't predict the landscape now. 

Dr Jeremy: No. 

Val: I think it's unpredictable. And what might be unpredictable as well. The London mayoral election. That's usually a labor ground. It went to Tory 'cause it was Boris.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah.

Val: Other than that, yeah, no, it's labour. What if Reform has a really good candidate? I don't think there's anything set in stone anymore. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: And I think everybody in the house shouldn't take their seat for granted, and I'm sure some of them don't, but to me, it's all up for grabs. It really is. 'Cause a landscape politics as we know it, everything's changing. Some people might think not for the better. But I've always believed [00:46:00] people need more choice. There's two party thing. Yeah. One minute you fed up with one, the other one comes in. You fed up with that one. The other ones that you were pissed off with before are back in power. Can't just have two. These two need to wake up and realize that people now have the third option. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. They're not the only game in town. 

Val: Maybe a fourth. Jeremy Corbin you never know what's going to happen there. If the next couple of years you don't know. I think that's good. Because now everybody really can't take anything for granted, I want there to be a clear difference. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Between what they're selling. But there needs to be a better salesperson.

Dr Jeremy: Do you know if are any of the major parties are they talking about changing the electoral system to something like some form of proportional representation? 

Val: I don't know. 

Dr Jeremy: You don't know? 

Val: Dunno. [00:47:00] 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. I think nobody wants to do it when it's a two party system and your party's in power.

No. Nobody wants to do it as you're winning. But if we lived in a system where there were, where many parties and no one has clear majority no one can take their seat for granted. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: People might be more interested in a proportional system where even if they don't get the most votes, at least they get some credit for the votes they get.

Val: Okay. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Okay, let's end things there or we'll be going on until tomorrow. 

Dr Jeremy: Yes. 

Val: We'll be having dinner together. 

Dr Jeremy: No. 

Val: On screen

Dr Jeremy: Our takeaways.

Val: So the story really, 'cause we did talk about other things, but to me the story was about angela Rayner. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: And politics doesn't have to be for the privilege. Few. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: And it's supposed to be for the many, it [00:48:00] shouldn't be for the few. And she gave me that hope.

I hope one day she will be back. Not only labour needs, the country does as well, whether she becomes leader or not. She needs to be front and center doing what she does. It would be a sad end if this was this, if this is a thing that ends her career.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. I think for me I think, yeah, the, with the story with Angela Rayner stepping down, I really think the label I was focused on is hypocrite or hypocrisy. Really we're talking about someone here who, was supposed to execute the rules, but now they've broken the rules, that makes them hypocritical.

And I think the misconception is that, hypocrisy is always a bad thing, I she needed to step down 'cause she didn't want to be a hypocrite, but we should be sensitive to when politicians [00:49:00] seem to be getting away with it. The contrast of how we treat different leaders. Different kinds of leaders. I think that's really the key theme for me.

Val: Okay. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: When I look at , the label, I see the working class itself 

Dr Jeremy: is working class.

Val: , Are you trying to remind yourself or to remind that person your working class know your place? Yeah. The misconception is that background doesn't matter, that once you're in government, everyone is E is equal. I don't believe that. 

Background always shapes perspective, because I remember her saying something like, somebody thought she was thick something like that, so there's always going to be that misconception. Because of your background counselor state you were 16, had a child,

How should we end this, Dr. Jeremy? Go on. 

Dr Jeremy: Ending [00:50:00] on a positive note. I might need a few seconds to think about that because things are pretty grim right now. 

Val: Okay. I'm 

Dr Jeremy: i'll. This, yeah. I think positively. I think I'm just gonna have to go tend to my barbecue. Yeah. That's most positive I can think about. Yeah. 

Val: But let's wrap it up with this Angela Rainer's res resignation. Her story is much bigger than politics. It's about whether Westminster can truly make space for voices from outside the usual elite, and whether that difference can survive the system. If we want politics that reflects real lives, then it matters who gets in and what they're allowed to do once they are in. Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: Great. 

Val: Hope you all enjoyed today's episode with me and Dr.

Jeremy. Follow us on our socials.

Dr Jeremy: Leave a review. 

Val: Leave a review to Hi Toki. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. Yeah. If you want to, if you wanna hear more of John, gee, we can make that part of the podcast if we [00:51:00] get requests. Yeah. Oh, sh 

Val: John Key. Say bye. Bye? 

Dr Jeremy: He's gone now. 

Val: Oh, he is asleep?

Yeah. He's always asleep. 

Dr Jeremy: No he ran off. I think he's looking for sunshine somewhere. 

Val: Oh, okay. All right, then say bye. Yeah, Dr. J. 

Dr Jeremy: Okay. Bye-bye everyone. Byebye. Okay,