EPISODE 26: Unity or Division? Exploring Immigration, Race, and Free Speech in the UK

INTRO RAP: [00:00:00] Stories Labels Misconceptions N Hs remains a blessing created in 1948. We want it to remain great. A podcast to share our stories explore solutions in all their glories they say its broken but its not done with your hosts Val Barrett Dr Jeremy Anderson 

Val: Welcome to Stories, labels, and Misconceptions with Val Barrett. 

Dr Jeremy: I'm Dr. Jeremy Anderson. 

Val: Today we were gonna talk about the NHS League TA tables 

Speaker 4: yes. 

Val: But we're switching it because notice in the UK there's a big protest demonstration, called [00:01:00] Unite the Kingdom.

Dr Jeremy: We've got thousands joining a march organized by Tommy Robinson called unite the Kingdom. They're marching towards Whitehall. Then there's a counter demonstration. By the March against fascism protest. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: Organized by standup to racism. So we've got thousands of people in London marching, protesting, and counter protesting. This necessitated a thousand police officers including importing officers from outside London to handle this,

Val: it seems huge and there's it says here, there's a mix of slogans of the flags. Including stop the boats. Yeah. Send them home Unite the kingdom, and you've got anti transgender activists are amongst the crowds. One man carried a large wooden cross with RIP Charlie Kirk. A right wing US [00:02:00] activist shot dead on Wednesday while speaking at a university. 

Dr Jeremy: He was killed by a 22-year-old gunman turned in by his father,

Val: yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: Who he confessed to his father, a former law enforcement, I think a sheriff. His dad then contacted a, 

Val: a friend, wasn't it

Dr Jeremy: friend also in law enforcement. They arranged for him to be taken to a police station. He's 22 years old. We don't know many details but his family are staunch Republicans and he had a long history with firearms which explains how he got a high powered rifle and was able to shoot charlie Kirk was, at a gathering on a university campus.

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: His thing was, as a YouTuber, he would go onto college campuses and challenge people to debate topics. He was a right winger and an ally of Donald Trump. Universities in the US tend to be associated with left-wing politics.

Some viewed him as a [00:03:00] provocateur and his position was, if you have a better argument debate me. I have to say, there's not much that Charlie Kirk said that I agree with, but there was something he said that I agree with we're perpetually faced with a choice when we disagree with someone between speech and violence. If we're not willing to talk to people 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: Then violence becomes the only option if we wanna persuade them. I think I would add a second. Or third option we could accept that we're not going to persuade them.

Val: Yeah.

Dr Jeremy: It's not a binary choice. We wanna live in a world where we talk out our differences. But if we're not going to agree that's okay. We don't have to agree. We don't have to make somebody agree with us. Violence is never on the table. We just have to accept that, we're not going to kill somebody because of what they say or think. 

Val: We hope not, but nevertheless, 

Dr Jeremy: and I'm not saying it won't happen, just saying, as a matter of ethics it's never gonna be ethical to kill [00:04:00] somebody because of a word that came outta their mouth.

Val: Of course not. We seem to be getting more extreme. On the left or the right. 

Dr Jeremy: Absolutely. 

Val: I'm not gonna sit here and say, I've studied politics but from what I've read, from what I'm watching, I find it deeply disturbing. Yeah. I really do.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: As a woman of colour, born and raised in this country, which I do love, good grief, I get asked, where am I from? It is the number one annoying question for me. It's so bloody annoying. Because they've already othered me. They've looked at me saying, you don't belong here because of how you look.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: The difference in how I look to them is the color of my skin. When people say it's not about race, it's not [00:05:00] racism. Take a walk in my shoes for a day and tell me it isn't 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: People shouldn't tell. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Other people what they experience and how they feel from that experience isn't valid just because they have a different point of view.

Dr Jeremy: I walked down the street I am an immigrant to this country, but I never get asked. Do you get asked? No, once I start to talk people hear my accent, 

Val: yes. 

Dr Jeremy: The question is,

Val: Canadian, American, are you Canadian or 

Dr Jeremy: American?

Val: Exactly. They pick up the accent. 

Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: There's never a sense of you shouldn't be here. 

Val: Yes. 

Dr Jeremy: It's always you're here and what do you think? It's all very friendly for me, 

Val: Uhhuh. 

Dr Jeremy: You get the surprise conversation.

Val: Yeah. I don't get the conversation Now if I was somewhere at an event or gathering or whatever and I'm talking to someone and they say, oh, where's your accent from? I would say I'm from the [00:06:00] Midlands.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Then the conversation might go deeper. What's your heritage? That's a different question. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Do you see what I mean? I can ask that question to a white person. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Just 'cause a white person is born here doesn't mean their parents were that conversation can work both ways.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah, 

Val: How often do white people get asked, what is your heritage? 

Dr Jeremy: It can happen often, but there's never a sense of, I'm asking you this because I'm not sure if you're supposed to be here. 

Val: Yes. 

Dr Jeremy: The assumption is the motivation is different. It's just out of curiosity. That's the experience I have, I don't think anyone's noticed I'm Canadian. And suggested I shouldn't be in this country. That's never happened.

Val: No. 

Dr Jeremy: And I think the counterargument to what you've expressed Val that you hear on maybe the far right is you know, [00:07:00] that you should be interpreting the question in the same way that I do, in the same way that I'm not threatened by it. Yeah. You shouldn't be threatened by it. And I guess my response would be if people are interpreting it different if the question is landing for you, that's different. Why is that? Because of a lifetime of not feeling but being people expressing things to you. Do show you're not welcome. Yeah. 

Val: I'll tell you why it lands differently. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: If that is the very first question you asked me. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: That's when you know they've see you differently. Like I said before, I could be at an event engaging in a conversation. And you must say, oh, what's your heritage? And I might say what's yours? They could be Italian. Sure. Anything else. But I don't like it when it's the first question before I have spoken, I could [00:08:00] understand if I was speaking with an accent. Or speaking in a non-English. Dialect. Then I could understand that person might say, where's your language from? I 

Dr Jeremy: dunno. Sure. 

Val: Because we ask each other, I might see a fellow Jamaican and say, oh which part of Jamaica are you from? Where are your people from? Liking, no liking,

Dr Jeremy: exactly.

Val: And I can go somewhere and I know when, oh, that person's from a is a smally, is a smiley, as you might, who might say from Trinidad or Barbados. Oh, from a smaller island jamaica. There's a look, you know your people.

Dr Jeremy: Okay. 

Val: Yeah.

Dr Jeremy: Yes. But the difference is some indication someone is not from here. If you walk up to someone and you're having a conversation and they reveal something about themselves 

Val: Yeah.

Dr Jeremy: That tells you they're not from here.

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: Then that's one thing [00:09:00] to say, what's your heritage? 

Val: It's, yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: But if someone walks up to you, you haven't said a word. They just walk up and go, where are you from? 

Val: Exactly. 

Dr Jeremy: Again,

Val: what's it gonna do to you? 

Dr Jeremy: It means that merely seeing you has given them an indication that you're not from here. And that's what people react to. 

Val: And I think sometimes it's not that person is racist, I stress not, sometimes it's just down to education. I don't believe everybody that asked that question is. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. I 

Val: Sometimes they're trying to find something to say, I don't know. And that could be the first thing, but then why do you see me and think I couldn't possibly talk about something? For example. Don't just engage me in black issues. I am not the spokesperson. Everything black. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah.

Val: It's ridiculous. I talk about the NHS 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. [00:10:00] 

Val: I talk about being a carer. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: That is not exclusive to just people that look like me. But people want to engage you in conversations around race, believe me.

We're only talking about it now because what's going on today, but Dr. Jeremy and I barely even talk. 

Dr Jeremy: We don't talk about this No. 

Val: We are not obsessed with race. When some white people say, we are obsessed with race, let's stop. Ask me where the hell I'm from. 

Dr Jeremy: Sure. 

Val: It doesn't make sense.

Yeah. Make it make sense. Eventually they'll talk to you about something else, they wanna know where are you from? But another Midland person might say, which part of the Midlands are you from?

Because the accent I've got and some of the things that I might say the scenes that we use they might ask that question like another broy might ask another broy. Which part of Birmingham are you [00:11:00] from? And one could be white and one could be Asian or black, but it's not about race. It's about where your f which part of Birmingham. Sure, of course. If that makes sense. I don't mind engaging in conversations. I love talking. But please don't make it all about race. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: There are people better equipped to talk about things like that than me, I can only talk about my experience. My experience growing up and living in the Midlands Yeah. Is going to be different to somebody that looks like me growing up in London. The experiences are different. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: I remember in London there was riots. tottenham riots the Brixton riots. I oh, there was a riot in Liverpool. Oh, okay. There was an area of Liverpool. Where [00:12:00] else was there? Riot? I can't remember now. But you mentioned the area I'm from. No, it was only a few of us.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: No, I can't give you any experience around that. Yeah. It isn't a major racial. Tension situation. I've never had it. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. It's, a very strange question to look at somebody and notice their race. And then ask them to explain or articulate their race's position or Right. It's the same thing like Jewish people being asked to explain the actions of Israel if they live over here. 

Val: Exactly.

Dr Jeremy: If China was to invade Taiwan, we wouldn't be walking up to people of Chinese heritage or East Asian heritage and saying, what do you think about China? What do you have to say for yourself? That would be absurd. And it's absurd when we do it with anyone else. 

Val: Ah yeah. [00:13:00] And then you look at, I JD Vance

Dr Jeremy: the vice president of the us

Val: Yeah. Him. I know that his wife has being racially abused. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Online. And now she knows who she's married to. I don't know if this is true. Let's say she believes in what her husband believes. She goes to a march she will still get racially abused even though she believes in the same cause as you. You are still gonna turn around and call her names. It's 'cause she doesn't look like you. So it is racism, yeah. 'Cause you hear of people. On certain marches believing in reform and getting racially abused.

The Chairman, I think he's the chairman. The man in reform is his name Zaire or some something?

Dr Jeremy: No. While you do that I [00:14:00] think it is concerning that a lot of these social issues that kind of started in the US are being exported around the world, including the uk.

We've got this rise of right-wing populism all over the place. And so that's why I think you've got, at this rally today, you've got Steve Bannon. Showing up. Sorry. 

Val: His name is Zaya Sef. 

Dr Jeremy: Zaya. Yusef, 

Val: yeah. Yeah. Okay. And he is a British businessman. Believes in what reform stands for. Believes in that, 

Dr Jeremy: which is what exactly? 

Val: God. 

Dr Jeremy: No, I asked because okay. Nigel Farage, was Brexit. That's what he hammered on now Brexit happened. He went away for a while. Started Reform UK and they're doing well in the polls, but it's not clear to me what they stand for. 

Val: This is what he says, the 

Dr Jeremy: UK version of Trump. 

Val: Exactly. This is what it says. It says Reform uk. Is a right wing populous political [00:15:00] party. That advocates for reduced immigration. Okay. Lower taxes and the scrapping net zero carbon emissions. But then that some of that can be put to any party because they both, they all say they want to reduce immigration.

Dr Jeremy: Immigration. Yeah.

Val: Like I said before, his speaker phone is louder. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: It's not just the message, it's the messenger.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah.

Val: And his message as a messenger is cutting through more so than the Tory Messenger? 

Kemi Ock or the labour messenger. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah, 

Val: They are not cutting through. I was thinking about this the other day, we know reform, as you said. They are getting high up in the polls. But also I think people have had enough of this two party ping pong game [00:16:00] pissed off with one so we bring the other one in.

But we pissed off with them before. So I think people are fed up with them and thought, you know what, we need a third option, which this never really had. 'Cause way, way back. It was only one party then out of the union move movement came the labour party. And then liberal Democrats and whatever. And now we've got. Choices. We've got a lot more choices. Which might mean we don't have an outright winner. 

Dr Jeremy: A majority in parliament. 

Val: So they might not get a majority that's needed. 

Dr Jeremy: No. You get more coalition governments.

Val: does that happen in Germany they have coalitions. A lot. 

Dr Jeremy: A lot in Germany. A lot in Israel. 

Val: They got it in France now, haven't they? Coalitions france got coalition. 

Dr Jeremy: In France it's different. They have runoff elections, so it comes down to two candidates. Whoever wins gets more than 50% of the vote. Sometimes[00:17:00] parties will team up in order to get their agenda through. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: They can have informal arrangements sometimes they'll team up to try to stop the far right. What was Marin Lap Pence party. The national front, or I think they call it, yeah. Something else now. From becoming a viable candidate, at least in the final round. Yeah. But the far has been doing well in France, in Germany, and other places in Europe. It's a concern seeing large rallies in the UK I think there isn't much disagreement about the problem the problem is easy it's coming up with a workable, viable, ethical solution. Is hard work. So just saying, we're gonna put everyone on planes and send 'em home, is, a lot harder in practice than than it is to just say it on a stu speech. 

Val: I know. But wouldn't it be a shame if we got rid of the European rights isil Oh, human rights. The Convention 

Dr Jeremy: on Human Rights. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: [00:18:00] Yeah. Yeah. My understanding is Britain was one of the founding members of the European Conventional and Human Rights. And for us to leave it would be a huge blow to our prestige. 

Val: God, it is. It seems like the temperature isn't coming down. It's getting more and more inflamed. Language very important. How the message is portrayed by that messenger. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. The labels we use, that's really key to this podcast is Yeah. Is understanding the impact that the labels we use, how that shapes our views. In this example, there's people coming to this country legally or illegally you could call them an immigrant or a migrant. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: That's one label. Or an asylum seeker. 

Val: They're trying to say that not everyone that comes over. In a boat is an asylum seeker, but [00:19:00] isn't that what the process is supposed to determine to 

Dr Jeremy: People will claim, I need asylum. I'm in danger. In my home country. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: And the process is to determine whether that's correct. Are they really at risk of persecution or not? If you describe everybody as just an immigrant or everybody as an asylum seeker. There's two different thought processes that get triggered. And or sometimes, people would just be called egal.

Val: Exactly. 

Dr Jeremy: Undocumented. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: Or these are labels we use to describe people. 

Val: But I've never worked in the home office and never had to apply for asylum or refugee state status, so I don't dunno how the process works. I don't know what the definition of the person once they get here, until they've been processed. And the outcome, they're given that, okay, you can seek asylum, you are a refugee. So I [00:20:00] don't know 

Dr Jeremy: yeah, it's a long process. If someone says, I don't know, I'm from Syria and all the men in my village got killed by ISIS or whatever. Then the government has to determine whether that's even. True in this case, this person was one of those people at risk of being killed. But then even if they had a risk to them before, does their risk still exist now?

That's actually a lot of work to try to figure that out about what's happening on the ground in Syria. So these processes can take a long time and different countries have different rules about what asylum seekers can do while they're waiting for that decision.

Val: Okay. 

Dr Jeremy: In this country, people are not allowed to work, or at least , they don't officially get to work. And, but it's also the case that people in this country, it's easy to work under the table. And so there's a big draw for people to come here. But if you are making an official claim [00:21:00] you are not in a position where you can, get an official job and pay taxes, right?

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: And, pay for your own accommodation while you're sitting here waiting for a decision to be made, you have to be supported with income and a place to live. 

Val: Okay.

Dr Jeremy: If you're having this evaluated you're given permission to work. So the government doesn't have to support you, you can contribute to the economy and pay taxes. There's different ways of handling migration, whether it's asylum or otherwise.

Val: He says here. An asylum seeker, is a person who has applied for asylum in another country. Their status, their claim for protection is still being processed. 

Dr Jeremy: Yes. 

Val: Generally yes. They have more limited rights, such as restrictions on working and access to some social services [00:22:00] while waiting for a decision. Their motivation fleeing a country due to fear of persecution. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Human rights violations, conflict or violence. Now a refugee is a person that has been granted refugee status by the country they are in. 

Dr Jeremy: Someone comes to the UK they're granted refugee status, they're officially a refugee.

Val: So the state, the status would be legally recognized as need in protection and unable to return to their country of origin. 

Dr Jeremy: Sure. 

Val: They would be granted more comprehensive rights, including the ability to work. Access healthcare and receive education. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Their asylum claim has been accepted after a formal assessment and they meet the criteria of the 1951 [00:23:00] refugee convention. Now the core difference is an asylum seeker, the application is in progress. Refugee. Application accepted protection granted. So you are seeking asylum first. Once you've been accepted, you are then a refugee. 

Dr Jeremy: Okay. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: Okay. Yeah. That's clear. And then of course, then there's the people who are not seeking asylum, they're not refugees they're just seeking a better life.

Val: An economic migrant, is a person who voluntarily moves to a new country for economic reasons, such as seeking better employment. Higher wages or a better standard of living, and is not motivated by a well-founded fear of persecution [00:24:00] as defined for refugees.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Who wants a better life? 

Dr Jeremy: I'm an economic migrant, I came to this country. Or 

Val: I wouldn't have thought you would've said that. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah, of course. 

Val: Really?

Dr Jeremy: I came to this country seeking employment 

Val: i'm gonna stop you there. The reason why, soon as you use that word, you saw the look on my face the misconception is, economic migrants are people of color that don't look like you. No. Not a psychologist. 

Dr Jeremy: Someone who is highly trained and experienced 

Val: uhhuh 

Dr Jeremy: could still come to this country seeking better employment. Yeah. Higher wages. Opportunity they don't have elsewhere.

Val: I didn't know that. I really wouldn't have labeled you that. Ooh. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. So what they apply for a tier two visa, a work visa. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: First you find the job. Then once you have a job offer, then you apply for the tier two visa and usually the employer sponsors you. And assuming that's granted and it's [00:25:00] all above board and. You pay your taxes then you're allowed to work in this country for a certain length of time. Once you've worked in the country for several years Yeah. Worked and paid your taxes and there's no problems, you haven't broken the law, then you get to apply for indefinite leave to remain. That's not citizenship. It just means you don't have to keep applying for visas 

Val: not citizenship. 

Dr Jeremy: No. Citizenship is different. Indefinitely leave to remain it just means that you pay fees. Like you have to pay a NHS fee for access to the NHS. 

Val: Do you have to pay that? 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Still? 

Dr Jeremy: No, not anymore. I've paid it a couple times

Val: how much is it, if you don't mind me asking. 

Dr Jeremy: Different amounts for different visas for a different length of time. 

But I think it was about seven 50 pounds a year. 

Val: Is that a year? 

Dr Jeremy: If you were only getting a one year visa.

Val: Okay. 

Dr Jeremy: But if it was longer, you might pay, a thousand. For a three year visa they're pulling in cash from people applying to [00:26:00] settle and immigrate to stay indefinitely that's fine. But citizenship. Means is the difference being. If you leave the country, like for example, let's say, my parents or my wife's parents were ill. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: And we had to go back to Canada for a few years to take care of them. Once we finished that, we wanted to come back to the uk if we've been outside the country too long, we lose it. And then we would have to apply again.

Val: Do you know the length of time? 

Dr Jeremy: I don't know. I would have to look that up, but it seems like three years or five years oh, okay. 

Val: Okay. 

Dr Jeremy: It's if you're gone for years but if you're a citizen, you don't lose it, you can come and go. 

Val: What about your canadianness,

Dr Jeremy: i'm a dual citizen, both a UK and Canadian citizen. 

Val: You can keep your Canadian citizenship?

Dr Jeremy: I'm a dual citizen. So there is 

Val: So there's an option for that. 

Dr Jeremy: It's not an option. If I wanted to give up my Canadian citizenship I'd have to apply for that. 

Val: I wouldn't [00:27:00] wanna do that. Couldn't imagine giving up my British citizenship.

Dr Jeremy: No, I don't think most people wouldn't want to give up a citizenship, although an interesting thing in terms of paying taxes.

Val: Do you still need to pay taxes? 

Dr Jeremy: So if you pay taxes generally you pay income tax where you earn money.

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: I don't pay Canadian income taxes because I pay UK income taxes. That's where I'm working, so that's where the tax money goes. An interesting thing about US tax law is American citizens. 

Val: Is different.

Dr Jeremy: They have to file their taxes every year. They may not have to pay depending on what they're already paying in the country where they're living and earning

Val: yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: My understanding is for Americans, if they're paying less tax where they're living, they have to pay the difference to the American government. 

Val: Okay. 

Dr Jeremy: If you were supposed to pay, $50,000 in tax, in the US and let's say you're living in some low tax.

A place like, I don't know, [00:28:00] Costa Rica or Luxembourg or something like that. And you're paying 5,000 then you would have to pay 45,000 to the US government because you're not paying tax somewhere. So it's so I could imagine American citizens might want to give up their citizenship so they don't have to pay taxes.

Val: Oh dear. 

Dr Jeremy: But I think very few people do that. 

Val: Let's go back to the protest. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: What do you think the psychological impact is on individuals and communities. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah that's an interesting one, right? Honestly, before we talked about it, I hadn't been paying attention to this at all. I dont feel like it affects me. Okay. But I think the effects of these protests and rallies are felt different by different people, depending on a variety of factors.

Val: Put it this way. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: I was fearful of my son going to work. [00:29:00] I really was. I've never usually allowed things like this to make me make different decisions in my life. But this is different from the seventies. The temperature with this is really high. The language is different. The feeling is different. It's worldwide. I know it probably isn't, but it feels I said to a friend the other day, I don't think I can go on holiday. Where would I go? I can't travel far because of my heart and lungs. I would have to stay within say four hours plane ride. Would I feel okay going to Spain, Italy, any other European country. I know there are [00:30:00] issues here. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: I hope this makes sense to you. It's my country. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: I'd rather stay here and put up with it than go somewhere I don't know. I'm more comfortable in my own country. I know the areas that I would go to. I know the areas that I would stay away from. Yeah. Do you see what I mean? And also the end of the day, this is home and I shouldn't have to feel isolated and threatened it's getting worse. 

Dr Jeremy: When you talk about saying to your son, don't go to work today. Because the fear involved 

Val: yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: That's awful. That's an effect you don't like, people have a right to protest.

Val: Of course they do. 

Dr Jeremy: This protest. They're saying we're standing up for free speech. You might think why would anyone feel threatened by a free speech movement? Everyone should have free speech. But [00:31:00] it's the knock on effect it's what the hooligan does when they think they can get away with something now because they feel like something has changed.

Val: Yeah. I should be able to go anywhere.

Dr Jeremy: That's the concern. 

Val: I should be able to go out, do whatever I want. I'm not hurting anyone. But you do feel that threat. Yeah. You feel that fear? 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Even though I agree. We do have too much immigration. It's like they don't care what we think. Do you see? Because they look at us. Let's take for instance, I think I've mentioned this before. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: When a crime happens we text each other, , let's pray. It's not done by a black person.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: It's not done by a person of color. Because we all have to pay for that. They look at all of us. When a white person does something, the temperature goes low. Nobody really? Does anything, look at that group in Glasgow, that pedophile ring. Not a noise. Not one [00:32:00] noise. It's like we have selective outrage when it comes to who

Dr Jeremy: Yeah.

Val: Not what the crime is.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah.

Val: Who commits the crime? What ethnicity is the person?

Dr Jeremy: Yeah.

Val: That's the first thing they wanna know is the person born here. But there again, they don't even wait to hear if the person is born here, that person is labeled an immigrant. They've arrived by boat. You know that label is given straight away. And so when some commentators say why do the police have to release the ethnicity? And details like that? Because they do. Until you are in that group 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah.

Val: You don't know how it feels. 

Dr Jeremy: No. Nature abhors a vacuum if they don't release information that vacuum, gets filled by misinformation. 

Val: Exactly. 

Dr Jeremy: People make stuff up if they don't have the facts, 

Val: which [00:33:00] has the biggest megaphone 

Dr Jeremy: of course. 

Val: Doesn't help who owns Twitter.

Dr Jeremy: No. But to go back to Charlie Kirk, the shooter is a 22-year-old white dude. 

Val: And suddenly some people are sounding different. What's her name? Nancy Mays. 

Dr Jeremy: I don't know who that is. But the point I was gonna make is that, as a, yeah. No, 

Val: it's Nancy Mace. Went off on one. It's a lefty. She was ranting and raving. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah.

Val: Like a lunatic. But once he found out Yeah, it was this young, I think she said, so let's pray for him 

Dr Jeremy: really, it suddenly changed. It caused me to think, okay, people like me are gonna get blamed for this, right? No one's gonna look at white dudes and say you're all a bunch of shooters. That's just not something I have to worry about.

Val: I know. Someone is being shot, his family is hurting, his children are gonna grow up without him. And it's not about whether you [00:34:00] agree with what he says he is being brutally assassinated. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: And we've got to remember it doesn't matter. What kind of skin this person is. But you hear the difference when it's somebody else? When a police does it what were they doing to get shot, we've got to be consistent. Being assassinated, whether by a civilian or a police officer does it need to happen? It should be the same throughout, if it's a criminal, apprehend, that person. So we talked about human impact, but as we know, everything revolves around stories. And we seem to lump everyone. That comes over in a boat. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. I wonder what the impact is on people who participate in protests, right? Free speech is important to me, and so I'm gonna join a protest. [00:35:00] Now it's something I am a protester. Or someone labels you far right or far left, once things people do become part of their identity it's interesting that people's views get. Changed by identifying with a group, right? 

Val: Yes. 

Dr Jeremy: So if you're in the US I don't know, you can tell me if this is the same in the uk. People have noticed that if you know where someone is on one issue you probably know where they are on a bunch of unrelated issues. If I ask you a question, you tell me you are against abortion. I know where you stand on issues like gay marriage, capital punishment, environmentalism taxes, immigration, and so on, right? All these issues had nothing to do with each other. But they're all cluster in political left wing or right wing, right? If you identify as someone in one of those groups, you [00:36:00] stop thinking about all the issues independently. But it's more question of what do people in my group believe?

And I think this is a problem. We need to be politically, non-binary, we need to think carefully about each individual issue, or within issues. You could have a nuanced approach. Be like an environmentalist who supports nuclear power, right? There's debate about whether that's good or bad not everyone thinks the same way, 

Val: but we do on the left and the right, which I hate. But yeah. This is how it is. You are either left or you are right. There are issues that both sides actually agree about. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: But it's the language, the messenger. Right now I haven't heard anybody from labour. No one, if they don't change cause soon there's gonna be a lot of people that won't have a political home. Yeah. Come the next election [00:37:00] and that will be a shame. 

Dr Jeremy: Why do you think labour's not stepping up? You've got this massive rally?

Val: Because it's not about them speaking against the rally because this is England, this is Britain. We're allowed to do these things Tommy Robinson has told everybody don't cover your face and no violence. He's put that message out there. 

Dr Jeremy: Okay. 

Val: It's going ahead, which it should, but we also need messages from the government. Use the title. Unite the kingdom and talk. About the different cultures within the, country. We we have different foods, religions or not. We have different ways of worshiping different music. Different celebrations, [00:38:00] but all that comes under the banner of Great Britain instead of dividing everybody and seeing that group as a threat they're trying to take over

Dr Jeremy: yeah. 

Val: No one's trying to take over anybody. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah.

Val: I don't understand why they think they're being taken over. They would have to explain that to me. Language is important. The way you put things across, the way the messenger sells their message. As a woman as a black woman I'm not here to take anything over. I'm not here to take your job. Your home.

People have to stop feeling threatened, they might not understand I feel fearful of this, that I won't go out when things like this take place. Do you see what I mean?

Dr Jeremy: Yeah, that's true. 

Val: When they [00:39:00] look at somebody like me, they see immigrant. I dunno if it's true, I feel they have a hatred of immigrant. That's my feeling. It may not be true. I have a right to my feelings because the language you are using is loaded towards people that don't look like you. Even though I agree something needs to be done about immigration, the temperature needs to be lowered, I have no problems with the flag. 

Dr Jeremy: Of course. 

Val: No problems with the flag at all. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: It's just a flag. The symbol of the flag has changed. In, I think it was 1977 at the Jubilee, we were standing out there waving our flags. Having street parties celebrating our queen. We all did [00:40:00] it. They've got to remember, she's older, she was the monarch. For Caribbean countries, African countries. 

Dr Jeremy: Sure. 

Val: And there's a lot of people that celebrate the queen. When she was alive. Now they celebrate the king. That's just the way it was. My dad was telling me about, a big statue of Queen Victoria, it's either in Spanish Town or Kingston, and their streets named after them. We've got to stop thinking it's. Them against us. There's too much of that, I just feel that, 

Dr Jeremy: What you're talking about being divided. And us versus them. It's interesting the rally today is called unite the Right. We're calling for Unity but this protest feels it doesn't represent much of the uk 

Val: Look at the speeches, right? It tells you from the speakers. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. If Steve Bannon, so from the US is if you're importing foreign speakers to your rally, [00:41:00] how representative is this of the uk 

Val: That's because they look like them Exactly.

Dr Jeremy: Exactly. But I think this is another case where the language is important. Where, if you call it unite the kingdom what could be wrong with that? We all wanna be united. I think there's a game that we can play with language where something that is very much not a uniting force can call itself. That imagine a world where you purge everyone who doesn't look or doesn't think like you. Yeah. Everyone left over would be united because they'd all look like you. They'd all think like you, right? They wouldn't be united. That's one way to be united. 

Val: But there wouldn't be, because humankind would find a way. To fight against another group. It would be, okay, we're all white now. What's the difference between this group? Oh he's got a disability. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: He can't have kids. She can't, always something. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. I'm sure they find, something else to divide. What I'm driving at is it's [00:42:00] less about being unified, but recognizing forces in society driving us apart. We're not always gonna, agree or think the same way but we don't have to be torn apart in the modern world we're faced with things driving us into, opposing camps. We don't need to be opposed so much. 

Val: This is going to be the issue for the next election. Forget about the NHS, education. People can't pay their bills. The reason for that is immigrants. That is the deciding factor. If there was an election tomorrow, labour would not be on that bench. 

Dr Jeremy: No, 

Val: Let's end or we can go on forever. 

Dr Jeremy: Okay. 

Val: Find this disheartening 

Dr Jeremy: yeah,

Val: we do your labels and misconceptions even though we have mentioned a few.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah really we talked about a few labels [00:43:00] here and I just have to give it a think here about really what's the issue. So what we've talked about today is, there is this rally about free speech. We didn't really talk so much about free speech, but, because I think at the end of the day this,

Val: I don't have an issue with free speech. 

Dr Jeremy: No I don't think anybody has that. There's 

Val: no insights violence and whatever. Cause there are laws for that. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. Sometimes this gets framed as you're either for free speech, or not. But nobody is a free speech absolutist.

Everybody's got something they don't think people should say, but we bicker about where the line is, in terms of this rally underlying it is people's discontent with immigration.

The label I'd focus on is immigrant because it affects the way we think about the person. If we think about them as an immigrant, that conjures up one [00:44:00] image.

Val: Exactly. 

Dr Jeremy: If we think about them as an asylum seeker that's another label. We think about them differently. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: Sometimes that affects the way we think about people. We can have a misperception because we're using the wrong label. That's what I would say about today.

Val: My label is of course, about foreigners. Immigrants like you look at how you look. I will describe you. Seven foot tall, handsome, blonde. Looks like a viking.

Dr Jeremy: That's all true, except i'm not seven feet tall but the rest is true.

Val: Funny. Modest. Is that immigrant? The label? Sticks more to people that look like me than to you. 

Dr Jeremy: The misconception is that if you're a person of color, you're an immigrant, or if you're an immigrant, you must be a person of color. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: That's sad. So I'm just gonna leave with [00:45:00] this.

As I said about community in that, 

Dr Jeremy: yeah. Do you have an inspiring quote for us? 

Val: This protest raises a question we can't keep dodging when we talk about Unite the Kingdom. Who exactly do we mean? Because if Unity doesn't include every race, culture, and community, then it isn't unity at all. It's just a slogan. 

Dr Jeremy: Said. 

We'll talk about league tables next week. 

Val: Yeah. That's it for today. Everyone has their own thoughts on free speech protesting and race. It's not going away. The megaphones are just gonna get louder and bigger.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah, 

Val: Follow us. Let us know your thoughts. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: He saying enjoy the weekend. Oh. And I haven't heard a pip squeak out of Junkie today. 

Dr Jeremy: I think junkie is hanging with my wife right now, 

Val: the wife [00:46:00] is back, he's dumped you? 

Dr Jeremy: Yes, my wife is back. 

Val: He used you good. He loves her more, 

Dr Jeremy: maybe No. 

Val: He loves you more. No, he loves no more.

Dr Jeremy: He loves me. Okay. 

Val: Thank you. Thank you Dr. Jeremy. Bye.