EP: 28 NAVIGATING MISCONCEPTIONS: FROM PAINKILLERS TO POLITICS

Val: [00:00:00] welcome to Stories Labels and Misconceptions with Val Barrett. 

Speaker 4: I'm Dr. Jeremy Anderson. 

Val: This week Jeremy's taken us to the US with Trump's comments about paracetamol. 

Dr Jeremy: Yes.

Val: Later I'll be unpacking the latest moves from Starmer to Andy Burham and the Labour Conference.

 Dr Jeremy: Excellent. Let's get started. So , when I was thinking about what we're gonna talk about on this episode, I thought what's the big health news this week? On the 22nd Trump held a press conference with RFK Junior in the States. And in that press conference was a big surprise because they announced that they thought there was a link between acetaminophen or in the UK we call it paracetamol.

And risk of autism. And this was a big surprise because for those who don't [00:01:00] know RFK Junior, who's the current US Health Secretary for a long time, has advocated the idea that there's a link between. Autism and what was called the MMR vaccine. Yes, the measles mumps rebello vaccine.

And specifically because of a kind of preservative that's in the vaccine that it was suggested, was linked to autism actually by a discredited UK physician that link has been thoroughly discredited yet RFK Junior is a proponent everybody expected him to announce a link between vaccines and autism.

But they didn't do that. They said instead that there's this, there's a link between use of paracetamol by pregnant women and autism. And obviously Trump made the announcement. He did not mince words in any way. He wasn't exactly nuance.

Val: He never does mince his words?

Dr Jeremy: No, he just said, Tylenol, that's the trade name in North America. He said, don't take it. This was met with [00:02:00] huge controversy around the world. The rest of the world is not going to recommend that pregnant women stop taking this drug. The argument is there is no link. It's confusing because on the one hand you've got someone saying there is a link. And now people around the world saying there isn't. I thought it might be useful. For listeners to think about what this means and what it's all about. 

Val: I find it confusing. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. I think 

Val: it is confusing as a woman, it's confusing because we know you can have a room full of scientists and they all won't agree. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah.

Val: At the end of the day.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. And that really is the nature of science for a good scientist your job is to put forward your case. And if you're another scientist, your job is to tear that person's work down. 

Val: Okay.

Dr Jeremy: If the work survives despite effort to tear it down, we can have more confidence the first scientist's work is actually good. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: I think the issue is really that. It just really is difficult to [00:03:00] prove something to really be true. 

Val: Exactly 

Dr Jeremy: We all have opinions, we can speculate. The work to demonstrate something is true is difficult. We're all tempted to fool ourselves. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: What we want is if there's a scientific consensus that says this thing is true, we want that to be robust. We don't want people speculating or saying, this is just my personal view. What we really want is people only say something is true if we have reason to think that it. We can be confident that it's true. 

Val: But this is coming from the man who said bleach.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Get rid of COVID. It's not inspiring. 

Dr Jeremy: The guy who told us they were looking at injecting bleach to kill COVID back in his first term does not inspire confidence in his ability to parse nuance. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: The idea that taking medication might be harmful for pregnant women or the developing embryo or fetus. 

Val: Of course. 

Dr Jeremy: [00:04:00] Yeah. That's not crazy. Lots of medication can cause birth defects or other problems and alcohol. Even ibuprofen is recommended that pregnant women don't take that really, I can't remember when it's either after the first trimester or in the third trimester because there's a concern that it might affect the way the spinal cord develops Okay. At a certain point in pregnancy. There's lots of even over the counter medications that we recommend pregnant women don't take those things. Saying there might be a risk from acetaminophen or paracetamol is not crazy.

Val: But then on the flip side, 

Dr Jeremy: yes. 

Val: I think it was either the fifties or sixties. Pregnant, women were told they could take thalidomide 

Dr Jeremy: Yes. 

Val: Look what happened there. Raises a lot of questions. Do people trust what they're being told? This is the thing.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah.

Val: 'Cause when the children were born, they were born with deformed limbs. [00:05:00] Was it deformed limbs? 

Dr Jeremy: Yes. That's correct. I would have to look into the story,

Val: Oh, do you know about that? 

Dr Jeremy: I've heard about it and my understanding was there was a version of this chemical that is in fact perfectly safe. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: They assumed an analog of the chemical was also safe. 'Cause it's like a mirror image of the chemical 

Val: uhhuh. 

Dr Jeremy: But it turns out that's not true. Thalidomide causes birth defects.

Babies would be born with, misformed or missing limbs we do have a precedent for telling pregnant women, medication is not safe for the developing embryo or fetus. And don't take that medication. So on the one hand, it's it's not crazy. Yeah. But the question is there actually evidence linking the two things? And there's some US researchers looking at a series of studies saying, there does seem to be an association. They, there does seem to be at least a small correlation on that [00:06:00] basis, this is the recommendation. 

People like me are saying hold on, correlation does not equal causation. We're talking about an observational study. Not controlling for anything. We're just looking at who takes paracetamol, who doesn't, and the relative rate of something like autism if you see a, slightly higher rate of autism in the paracetamol group, there's a link. It's tempting to think paracetamol caused the autism, but that's not a safe assumption. 

Val: Okay. 

Dr Jeremy: And the reason for that is whenever you measure two things and you notice that as one goes up the other one goes up, or as one goes up, the other one goes down. There does seem to be a relationship, but it's not clear which one, if there is a causal relationship, it's not clear which one caused the other. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: And it's true [00:07:00] that, you can find a relationship between any two things you measure. I'll give you an example, Val, did you know there is a robust and repeatable correlation between ice cream sales and drowning? 

Val: Yes. You mentioned that, 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

So we know this to be true. 

Val: Yeah.

Dr Jeremy: We measure repeatedly as ice cream sales go up. 

Val: The weather's warm 

Dr Jeremy: Exactly right. So you'd be crazy to think eating an ice cream cone makes you more likely to drown. As the weather gets warmer people are more likely to eat ice cream and they're more likely go swimming. Yeah. And if you're more likely to go swimming, you're also, the rate of drowning goes up. A correlation between two things that doesn't necessarily mean that one is causing the other. And so for the same reason, even if there was a robust, there isn't. But even if there was a robust correlation between use of. Paracetamol and autism, that in and of [00:08:00] itself wouldn't prove paracetamol caused autism. There's just a link. We need to know the cause we still haven't determined the cause is. 

Val: Wouldn't that require a study of asking parents who do have children with autism? Did they take anything while they were pregnant? 

Dr Jeremy: We call that a retrospective study. In families where someone's been diagnosed with autism. We ask did you take, medication when you were pregnant? The problem with those types of studies is we're relying on people's ability to remember like how, okay, how much did you take acetaminophen? Ibuprofen? Naproxen I don't even remember.

Val: Or that study is done when the person is pregnant and they go to see the, I don't know, the nurse or the doctor. But a person might say no because they might think if I'm taking something they might judge me and think I'm harming my baby. 

Dr Jeremy: Exactly. 

Val: I don't think you are gonna get that solid 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. If you wanted to demonstrate causation you [00:09:00] would have to randomly assign some women to take paracetamol regardless of how they feel. And another group to not take paracetamol while they're pregnant. Now obviously you can't do that. That's unethical. You can't demand that people take or deny them a medication but the other issue is like not taking paracetamol 

Isn't a perfectly safe thing either. Okay. 'cause one of the reasons people take paracetamol is to reduce a fever during pregnancy, can cause problems too. 

Val: Yes. 

Dr Jeremy: It's not the safest option to not take paracetamol. If you need it, you might be opening yourself up to other problems if you don't it's actually fairly dangerous to come up with this statement, advising women very clearly and with no nuance to not take this medication. 

Val: And he had beside, as you said what's his name? John. FK. . Junior. Robert. Robert. FF Kennedy Jr. Yeah. John Robert. He looked like he was being held hostage. He looked [00:10:00] pretty strange. And then on the other side of him was Dr. Oz. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. He's a television doctor. And Trump is the, reality TV president. So I think all that fits. The last thing to say about paracetamol and autism is you can find a correlation researchers do to try to figure out whether or not they're dealing with an actual relationship or if it's just spurious, is you look at other things that might be accounting for a perceived relationship. And so when you take things into account, like family background.

Val: Yeah.

Dr Jeremy: And whether siblings also had autism, the relationship between the drug and autism falls away. So what it means is genetics are more important here. Genetics are accounting for the difference. 

Val: Doesn't it affect boys more than it affects girls? 

Dr Jeremy: Oh, I don't know about that it could be from what 

Val: Read.

Dr Jeremy: Yep. 

Val: So could it be something, I don't know [00:11:00] if there's been studies where. That illness where you fall and you just bleed? Is it hepatitis? The hepatitis. Oh, hemophiliac. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Hemophiliac women carry the genes. Boys get it. 

Dr Jeremy: Yes. 

Val: I could be chatting shit, I don't know. Trump does. Could it be a geno? I don't know. 

Dr Jeremy: I think the thing with autism is it's probably isn't a single factor. It's probably, there's, yeah. There's many things that all have to happen for a person to develop the illness. It could be a combination of genetic factors and exposure to something. 

Val: Because then they would all have to be exposed to the same thing.

Dr Jeremy: Not necessarily yeah. It could be people with a particular genetic profile being exposed to maybe one of several possible environmental things and having a particular immune response at a particular [00:12:00] time it becomes very complicated, 

Val: I think, there's a spectrum. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah, absolutely. 

Val: For instance, skin cancer we roughly know how that happens. So everyone that could get it. Are they exposed the same way through the sun and things like that? So that's just that way you wouldn't be, you wouldn't get skin cancer by taking a pill. So it's, this is what I'm trying to say. I'm trying to say in a weird way. Yeah, exactly. But it's exposed through one way. So we know that autism, you've got the spectrum.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. Oh, I think you're talking about Aspergers. 

Val: So you've got that wide spectrum, and then you've got some people with autism that can do amazing stuff. 

Dr Jeremy: Yes. 

Val: Some can't speak. 

Dr Jeremy: Yes. 

Val: You can't say it does one single thing. 

Dr Jeremy: Yes. It's not a single disorder. It may not be a single condition. And that raises another issue. [00:13:00] The whole reason that they were having this press conference is trying to address why are we seeing increased rates of autism over the last 10 or 20 years. The number of people diagnosed with autism has increased, but it's also true we've changed the diagnostic criteria. We've changed from being a single disorder 

Val: to a spectrum 

Dr Jeremy: That was characterized by people with severe language and developmental problems. The people you were talking about who, were either not able to speak or very limited and quite disabled. Maybe they had something that they were particularly good at. Kind of the Rainman example, but now we're, now the diagnosis includes as burgs, as well as other kinds of developmental disorders or even really mild social problems that people might have that they probably diagnosed with anything before.

Val: Yeah. It was only discovered in the forties. Before that [00:14:00] nobody was diagnosed. It was probably always there. 

Dr Jeremy: Was always there.

Val: It's just that they were probably told they were lazy. Didn't pay attention, was stupid. Just like other illnesses, of course several things until there's an actual name. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: So is autism like the umbrella name now for these other.

Dr Jeremy: Yes.

Val: Factors they've put under autism.

Dr Jeremy: We call it a spectrum.

Val: Okay.

Dr Jeremy: So rather than just saying there's a single category, we say there's a broad category and a wide variety of expressions of this type of disorder. Yeah. But it's not one particular disorder. It's not a surprise we're seeing increased diagnoses, actually changed what we're looking for. 

Val: Yeah. And there is more of us around.

Dr Jeremy: Precisely 

Val: that it? Yeah. Have you come across anyone autistic servant? If I'm pronouncing it correctly. Yes. 

Dr Jeremy: I've never encountered that kind of Rainman, 

Val: No I watched a [00:15:00] documentary of these twins.

In America. It's very sad. They remember every single day of their life, their mother who cared for them at one point couldn't cope anymore. She tried to kill them by putting their heads in the oven.

They even remember that. The mom died. Their younger sister took care of them. She was like, they're not going in a home. They had a program on TV they watched. I can't remember the name of the man. Something Clark, I think. I know. And he did a special show on New Year's Eve. 

Dr Jeremy: Oh, Dick Clark. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. 

Val: And I think, he got ill. ' He had a stroke. They didn't know why he wasn't on anymore.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: And then one day he did come back, but they noticed his speech. Wasn't right. They just kept repeating themselves their sister went away somewhere. She came back and she [00:16:00] died. It was just so sad.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah, it was '

Val: She was quite young. Her husband, put them in a home. He couldn't go. They were the loveliest women, honestly. They were just so nice. 

Dr Jeremy: That's horrific that 

Val: but to remember their mother tried every single day and they have, 

Dr Jeremy: yeah. They have an especially good memory of it. Like if you had a memory of it, it would stay with you. You'd hope that over the years the memory would fade. 

Val: Ours would, but because of what they've got, they remember the weather the day of the week. Somebody would say, what day? 1926 November 12th. What was the weather like? Buff, they could tell you. 

Dr Jeremy: Wow. 

Val: They just knew everything and wouldn't say anything in a sad way. She said, when the policeman came, he told Mom, you never do that again. They were just so [00:17:00] sweet. So you do have this huge spectrum 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Of all sorts. Yeah. Under this banner can one thing do so many things probably not. Do you see what I mean? I know what I'm trying to get 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. No, there's it's what we call multifactorial. Yeah. There's different things that are contributing. To. A general problem that's expressed in many different ways. And so anyway, bottom line, I guess we'll wrap up with my story here is that there is no good evidence paracetamol causes autism. When they look at better research the relationship disappears. At the moment we're maintaining there is no link between paracetamol and autism. 

Val: I think if any women are pregnant, consult your GP so I think that's the best thing to do. That's it. I dunno. Yes. Always take medical [00:18:00] advice 

Dr Jeremy: from an actual medical person. 

Val: Yeah. Not Donald Trump. Definitely not me. Okay. We are gonna take a quick break and we'll be back. 

Dr Jeremy: Okay.

Val: We're back.

Dr Jeremy: That joke never gets old, does it? 

Val: We're back, now I'm gonna lead on . The Labour party.

Dr Jeremy: Okay. 

Val: There was one person I did have high hopes for and that was Andy Burnham. Now I'm disappointed. Yeah. Pissed we want politicians to be honest when asked a question.

This was the time for him, not to be honest when asked about ambition to become PM or topple Keir I was hoping to just butt it away, I think he could have scuffled his chances. 

Dr Jeremy: What I saw [00:19:00] reported was, they weren't sure whether he wants to be leader

Val: wants it. But they want it.

Dr Jeremy: You're suggesting he would've mentioned it. He should have just said No. Not right now. 

Val: He should just use the normal politician line. We already have a leader. I'm the mayor of Manchester and that's what I'm concentrating on. Hire me. I'm available. That's what he should have said. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. So leaves options open, still supporting the leader. 

Val: Not drag labour mps under your bus to say they've reached out. You didn't name them. That they've reached out to him to oust him. What are you doing? Use your emotional intelligence. Don't say anything. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Because for him to get to number 10, he is got to get a seat in Westminster. And to get a seat in Westminster. He needs the Labour Party to [00:20:00] say it's okay for him to stand in said seat. 

Dr Jeremy: Sure.

Val: He's stopping that now. Yeah, because I noticed one year when the conference was on, they didn't allow him to speak on the main stage. I think Starmer is, I don't know. I wouldn't say intimidated, he knows he doesn't have flair. Andy Burnham got more flair and his communication is better.

Dr Jeremy: He would outshine 

Val: looking for. Yeah. He would outshine him. Come on, a cardboard box can outshine him. Honestly, please. Now he could have his chances, because we're talking about a prime minister and leader that suspends the whip from back benches if they don't vote in line with him. Blair never did that. Blair never suspended the whip from anyone, even though Jeremy Corbyn voted against them back to your time, he never suspended the whip. So this tells you about the confidence or lack off the leader, the [00:21:00] prime minister that we have now.

And the whole point is how can you say the party is a broad church if they cannot vote the way they want or the way their constituents want them to vote? Sure. That makes no sense for me. It doesn't, I think Andy Burnham is gonna burn his chances.

The MPs might give him a wide berth at the conference, see him walking up, and they're about, just turn around and think, we don't want the Prime Minister spies to see us cozying up to him. Because a private conversation, should have been private. Okay. He didn't name anyone. But now the Prime Minister is aware there could be people behind him trying to knife him. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Isn't it a matter of time before we find out who and who it is? The timing was wrong. Definitely wrong. [00:22:00] I think he should have got himself a seat first. 

Dr Jeremy: If someone's saying, does he have aspirations to be leader? He could say first things first, I don't even have a seat. I'm not even running. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: Ask me in five years. 

Val: Anything but the truth. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: But to get them on side, he shouldn't have said it it says something about how he sees himself. It sounded like he's the savior of the party. Because he is done well up north. Does that equate to doing well in Parliament? He's only got Manchester to deal with and there's a bit more flexible on what he says and who he challenges. But when you are PM, you gotta be a bit more diplomatic, let's say. So there's more toeing the line in Parliament than there is as m 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: So that's why people like myself have seen him in a different light because it is not in that [00:23:00] Westminster bubble. Down there he will have to please donors, please X, Y, Z. Yeah. Manchester, he could please the people there. And we know. Manchester the North has always been starved. So King of the North doesn't mean he can be King of the South. It is two different things and he should know that he is been an MP before. I'm now bothered about his communication skills. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: The only one you've got to beat is Farage. Tories. They're not even in the race. They're not in the race. If they change and get Jenrick, then you got. A knockoff Farage who probably doesn't believe everything he says and Farage. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: People are taken in by his [00:24:00] flair. Not just what he says, how he says it. And I think one of the biggest mistakes Stamer has made is to say something negative about the people that went to the protest, unite the kingdom. That's the worst thing that you can do. People have a right to go. You shouldn't believe that everybody there is fascist, is a racist, whatever word you, you choose some have probably voted Labour all their lives and thought labour isn't for them voted Tory.

Tory isn't for them. And at last, I've got someone saying the things that I'm saying at home. And don't forget the big mistake. Hillary Clinton made 

Dr Jeremy: the basket of deplorables when she called 

Val: Starmer is going to, if he carries on this way and they don't oust him. He is gonna be a one term [00:25:00] leader. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah.

Val: Because they're not listening. I'm not saying they've got to out forage. What I'm saying is they've got to be labour. They've already made that mistake of coming out with land of strangers. It's not authentic. If Farage says We need less immigration you say why immigration has been good. Talk about social care, talk about all the positive things, but also agree. Yes. We need to lessen illegal immigration. We need to stop people coming on boats. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: They're not counteracting that. 

Dr Jeremy: No. What did you think about the announcement later in the week? Maybe this got overshadowed a bit by Andy Burnham, but where they said we're gonna have digital ID cards. Oh, I think that sounds like a great idea. 

Val: No bloody [00:26:00] way, Jose.

Dr Jeremy: No. Why not? 

Val: No. At last we disagree on something. 

Dr Jeremy: I think it's a fantastic idea. I

Val: think it's terrible. 

Dr Jeremy: I think my understanding is that one of the reasons why so many people want to come to the UK illegally is because it's possible to work illegally in the UK versus a place like France. 

In France, you need a card, with your picture on it to work. If you have a choice between a place where you need one of those things, or a place where you don't, and you can work under the table. Work under the table.

Val: How did you get in the country? 

Dr Jeremy: The UK you mean? Or because I lived in France before this? 

Val: How did you get here? Into the uk.

Dr Jeremy: I applied for a visa.

Val: What did you need to prove? Who you were to get on the plane? What did you show them? Yes. What? What was it? I had a 

Dr Jeremy: I had a passport. Exactly. 

Val: That's an ID imagine this, you have a passport. A driving license, your national insurance number. If self-employed, your tax number. Your [00:27:00] workplace has your DBS, mark Zuckerberg knows what you've had for breakfast and dinner. Do we need anything else to overload the system? One big hack and everything's gone. It's all it's gonna take.

Dr Jeremy: What do you mean by that? 

Val: Hacking Digital. Yeah. Is there a system that can cope with all the digital IDs because this is the second time mentioning this, and I can tell you it's not gonna happen.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: It isn't gonna happen. We already have documents to identify. When I went to the Royal Marsden first thing they asked me, I could been riddled with cancer. Yeah. Where's your passports? 

Dr Jeremy: No, of course. Some employers will check, but 

Val: all employers should check.

Dr Jeremy: All employers should check. But there's something about this country allowing people. To work under the table [00:28:00] because it's not always required. 

Val: The government should be sorted that out. 

Dr Jeremy: I think that's what the digital idea made you sort out. No, 

Val: I some people will still get away with working under the table regardless. Of whether you have a tattoo on your head with your barcode, they'd get an ink pen and do it. That's not gonna solve undercover working, I don't believe it. No. 

Dr Jeremy: No perfect solutions.

Val: No, there isn't 

Dr Jeremy: But but a lot of these changes, it isn't about making something impossible for people to circumvent, but it's just making it inconvenient to break the rules.

Val: People will always find a way to break the rules. 

Dr Jeremy: Yes. Some people will find a way, but if you make it inconvenient enough, most people, 

Val: but it is inconvenient, it's just that if you've got the energy find a way around it. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. If you have the energy. .

Val: A [00:29:00] company if they wanna save a large amount of money and pay illegals. Not even half of the money. Less than that. Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Give them somewhere to sleep. And give them little bick of money during the week. They're gonna do it. They're gonna do it regardless of what law we have in place.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: What digital id, fingerprint, whatever. They're gonna find a way around this. I'm talking about outfits that are professional. Doing these things. We've got smugglers that are absolutely professional at doing what they do. Sure. So perhaps the government needs a concentrate on what's it smashing? The gangs, their slogan. Don't worry about putting me digitally. When things are getting bad, this is how you know when they haven't got an answer they bring in something that's easy this was brought [00:30:00] in way back with Blair. And people said no. So they're churning things out as a distraction. Because him hasn't smashed no or this policy about one in, one out. What nonsense is that? 

Dr Jeremy: Some people back to France though?

Val: I think they've sent one or two. So I feel like bloody going myself.

Dr Jeremy: They're trying to do something right. I think there probably is no perfect solution. But they're probably gotta try doing something right. 

Val: You know what the sad thing is? They've done a poll and they're saying if there was election tomorrow, the keys to number 10 in Farage's hands.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: They are handing it to him. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah, 

Val: they're handing it to him. They might as well put a placard welcome home, Nigel. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: And not to say he will solve everything. But [00:31:00] his language is different. It's coming across. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: People are fed up with the same old. 

Dr Jeremy: Do you think farages solution is gonna work better than a digital id?

Val: Who knows. But people, from what I've read, a lot of people don't want digital IDs, if you are on benefits your IDs there, you are at the doctors. Everything's there. Your doctor even knows what's it called? Your DNA you got everything there.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Your child's at school. They have your information. You've come from another country legally. You have your passport. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: You drive a car legally you have a driving license. There was a time we didn't even have a photo drive to have a license. Sure. So that's ID

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. Yeah.

Val: [00:32:00] It's, beggar belief that they want to add something else. At a cost of what? Jeremy, because don't forget, they talked about HS2. Look how much money that wasted. And they wanna do digital ID when they say there isn't any money. A distraction. It's not gonna happen. Now the conference is up. They've gotta pull a rabbit out the hat. They've got to come up with something. It's conference, people love a slogan. And even better if it rhymes.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: If it rhymes, we remember it all the times. If it's easy to say, it's easy to remember. Yeah. Smash the gangs, kill the boats. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. Stop the boat. Smash the gangs. Stop the boats. It's easy to say 

Val: take back control. All these things. Oven ready? Yeah. As Andre said, these are things that are [00:33:00] easily remembered. Yeah. But are they things that they've acted on? Bloody hell no. But you remember them? 

Dr Jeremy: The issue of illegal boat crossings there's probably no one solution that's gonna do everything, but it's probably gonna be a combination of not, maybe not smashing the gangs, but at least investigating them and trying to arrest them.

There's gonna be some, deporting people back to France when they catch them. And there's going to need to be some tighter regulation of businesses employing illegal migrants as long to try to reduce the poll.

Val: Sorry. You know what? As long as we have a world. That it's unstable. And we have war. And we have famine. We're always gonna have illegal immigration a lot of people want a better, there's nothing wrong with that. It's human being thing. Yeah. We want a better life. Nobody wants to starve to death.

Dr Jeremy: Of course.

Val: We don't, [00:34:00] you came here for a better life. My parents came here for a better life. Human beings strive for. They want to, they wanna help their families, they wanna build a home. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: And in some parts of the world, that's not possible. Whether it is Afghanistan or Gaza. It's getting worse, there's war in Sudan. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah.

Val: I don't think there's 

Dr Jeremy: massive numbers of people being killed in Sudan and we don't pay attention to that. Yeah, 

Val: exactly. Of course, they're not paying attention. It's Africa. Nobody pays attention to Africa. Until you see sudanese people coming over in boats, you see how quick they'll start paying attention to Sudan. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: We don't have the bandwidth to deal with so many crisis at once. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah.

Val: Because at one point. We're all focused on Ukraine. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: And next minute oh fuck,

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. Do you find that you just pull back and don't pay attention? Because I [00:35:00] find I don't have enough bandwidth. I'm feeling overwhelmed by all of the different conflicts in the world.

Val: Yeah.

Dr Jeremy: I can't get emotionally invested in we, all of these different things.

Val: I don't think it's safe to No. As human beings, you have to look after your wellbeing. This is why we have leaders. Ministers to take care of these things and we expect them to do the decent humane thing. To help end wars. That's what we want them to do, to end wars and enable more countries to be stable or this. This will never end. When was the last time England really had a war? We don't have civil wars. 

Dr Jeremy: No. The last real war we were in was World War ii.

Val: Exactly. Why do you think people wanna come here no matter how bad some of the racism is there's no civil war here. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah.

Val: That's a big parts of Africa. There's civil war. 

Dr Jeremy: [00:36:00] Yeah. 

Val: People feel safe here as a woman of color, if I had to choose which country to flee to. It would be this country. And I thank God my parents did come here. It's not a hundred percent great. Nowhere is 

Dr Jeremy: No, 

Val: You can imagine what the worst is. It's honestly to me is one of the better countries. In terms of laws, community. We don't live in segregation here.

Dr Jeremy: True.

Val: There's always an organization to help. This country's very charitable.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: When you get ill nobody wants your credit card first. Not yet. Anyway. That's another thing I don't like about Fararge He likes the systems [00:37:00] America has got when it comes to health. Now his supporters may like the fact, he seems tougher on immigration. People need to question more about the other areas. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: These other policies. You can't run a government just on immigration alone. 

Dr Jeremy: In regard to healthcare, if he's talking about American style healthcare, where you pay for private care. I was talking about this with someone last week, and I don't think, the problems are gonna be solved by introducing, paid healthcare. The issue is demographics, 

Val: right? 

Dr Jeremy: We have a larger number of aging people.

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: Who are not working in a smaller pool of people who are working to pay for healthcare needed by older people, the retired people. A huge demographic problem. If all of those people needing healthcare. Were offered the chance to pay for it. And they probably [00:38:00] could, given that, the baby boomers are the wealthiest people ever it still wouldn't solve the problem because, we're still needing the doctors and nurses and other people in the healthcare system to care for those people.

It's not about that. We don't have money to pay for it. Those people are being paid right now. It's that we don't have the capacity to care for those people. So I think people pull out this, just privatize it kind of thing is if that's gonna be a solution, but it's not solving the real problem.

Val: But then we also need people to, 'cause we're not having enough babies. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah, that's the issue,

Val: my baby are one truly over. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: We're not having enough to take care of anyone in social care. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: No one's talking as yet about a solution to social care. They can't afford not to have bandwidth

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: They've have a plan for the NHS, that's all well and [00:39:00] good. Because I'll tell you now, they don't have a plan for social care. We're all gonna end up in the NHS. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah.

Val: Every single one of us. End up there. 

Dr Jeremy: I don't think privatizing social care or NHS is gonna solve the problem it's a demographic problem. 

Val: No, I think social care might have to be different. 

Dr Jeremy: A different solution 

Val: yeah, I think it has to be a different solution. Because the only way that NHS can get, a bit better . People in A & E get people out of beds, get rid of bed blockers, needs to have a sustainable social care. It has to function well. Like a car. The engine of the NHS has to be, we shouldn't start from the emphasis of people getting sick. We should be starting on our left foot, saying, how do we keep [00:40:00] people Sure. How do we keep people at home to avoid them being, yes.

There's always gonna be things we can't. Prevent strokes, heart attacks. But there are things that we can prevent. If people are sick, we can get them home earlier. If we have a functioning social care, there are people waiting on lists for operations, whether it's a hip and they're living in agony. Because we don't have the space they need to, I'm sounding like a mad woman yet again, 

Dr Jeremy: I'm not, no. I'm not disagreeing with any of 

Val: You're looking at me weirdly. Going off about social care. It has to be, the engine. 

Dr Jeremy: No, of course.

Val: It really does.

Dr Jeremy: There's no argument the proposed solution to fix this, privatization. Isn't something that will fix that. 

Val: Let's forget about the word privatise let's think of it as another extra to the national [00:41:00] insurance.

Dr Jeremy: Okay? 

Val: Everybody pays into that 

Dr Jeremy: Okay? Pay for it one way or another. What it's gonna be paid for, 

Val: because at the end of the day, it is paid full by people's tax 

Dr Jeremy: Who does the job? What if we don't have people to do the job? 

Val: That's for government to stop. They need to stop getting rid of those visas. The social care visas. 

Dr Jeremy: Maybe all those people crossing on the boats can, get a job in social care? 

Val: What pisses me off? Why call it Department of Health and Social Care if there's no freaking social care?

Dr Jeremy: Yeah, 

Val: I could understand Before when it was just called the Department of Health. Should be called the Department of A & E and sick. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Because of bed blockers 

Dr Jeremy: now, because that's what it focus is. Yeah. 

Val: I saw it somewhere. They were advertising. And I said this would happen and I was hoping it wasn't going to ring true. A corridor [00:42:00] nurse. 

Dr Jeremy: We talked about the job advertisement for a corridor nurse, because we've got beds in corridors. They don't even have a room 

Val: next. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: It's gonna be a corridor doctor. A corridor healthcare assistant. It's going to become a corridor ward. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. So the idea that you would come to hospital and stay in a corridor Yeah. Rather than a room, would become the norm because the demand for the space outstrips the supply. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: They're trying to find a way of treating as many people as possible. Given the infrastructure 

Val: this is an overflow from A & E because when you've called 9, 9, 9, paramedics come, take you to A & E there's a long wait. They can't offload the patient. Because they have to do the handover. But there again, you're better off staying in the ambulance. Where there's little mini hospital there that can, if anything happens, you're safe. But meanwhile, another elderly person [00:43:00] or a person living with a long-term conditional person is very ill is dying. 9, 9, 9. But guess what? They can't get paramedics because they're queuing up. Waiting to offload a patient. There's a backlog of ambulances with patients 'cause it's no one to offload them to. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: And then they're trying to find space to put them in. You've got people in corridors on trolleys. Their dignity gone out the window. This is how they treat the elderly. We are the seventh richest country in the world and we are using the corridor as a quote unquote, a private space to treat people that's not private. You can't lock off a corridor. So what's happened to the [00:44:00] Nightingales? 

Dr Jeremy: I think they all got shut down. 

Val: They're still there. They haven't, nobody's shut them down and picked them up and move into another country. The building's there. So what's happened with them? 

Dr Jeremy: I think the staff redeployed for COVID have been 

Val: again. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: We are good at gimmicks. 

Showing people what we're doing, but I don't think anybody used it. I really don't think they did. The best time to use them is winter flu season. Let the NHS run. As it does. And anyone who gets flu or anything goes to the Nightingales.

And when it comes to staff, you go to the colleges and that where nurses are probably in their last year, doctors are probably in their last year. Healthcare systems are probably in their last year and get them there. 

Sometimes there has [00:45:00] to be, like a war effort, we've gotta think of it as a war, otherwise every year more patients will die. 

Cause they're not seen quicker. More patients will be stuck in. The wards, even though they're well enough to go home. Then go to the Nightingales and get people doing social care at college. Get them in the last year, doing practical work. 

Fear is all well and good. Get them out there in the ward. They had women driving tractors and building cars it just amazes me how things are not progressing thinking out of the box how can we do things differently this year last year it didn't work. And the year before that, doing the same thing over and over again, which is nothing. Yeah. Expecting less patients to get flu.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Expecting the elderly [00:46:00] not to get it. And guess what? They get it. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: It's not science. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. One of the issues we're having is that our societal problems are bigger than a single problem. We can't just keep on multiplying and having more babies and population rising because that results in environmental catastrophe. But if we don't keep multiplying that results in economic catastrophe. Our economic systems, including healthcare system, is essentially a big poncy scheme. We need more people at the bottom paying in than taking out. So our solutions to the different problems is actually they're misaligned, right? They're opposing it makes it especially difficult to solve the problem 

Val: as if they want to solve the problem. 

Dr Jeremy: That's, if that, yeah, 

Val: that's, because I did think about that the other night. I've got nothing else to do 'cause they're supposed to be surrounded [00:47:00] by the best brains. I don't know if they are they've got advisors, supposedly went to the best schools, universities. It's like we're going backwards. There's not one thing you can say, yeah, that's doing great. And then they think a change is gonna happen because they decide to get rid of NHS England and bring it in under house when that was done before. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: So all they do is rehash the tired, old sitting again and again. Where I used to live one minute. The street was a one way street. Next minute it was a two. Oh, let's go it back to a one way like, fuck sake, make your minds up. More money is spent. Putting things back. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: The way they used to be then coming up with something new and radical. Haven't you noticed that? 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. Or they start something [00:48:00] and they blow the budget so they decide it's costing too much money, so they stop it. And although there is something, it's worth stopping there's no point in good money after bad, but at some point you would like some of that good money to pay off. 

Val: In order for it to pay off we have to spend a heap of money now. Because they didn't ramp when it came to COVID. Yeah. Allowed these people to profit millions. When it comes to transport in this country when you look to other countries, is it China or Japan got good transport links. It's about Yeah. Both in investment in the future. So whether HS2 would've happened today, they might have to do it. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. So it sometimes of it's good point.

Val: Swallow it 

Dr Jeremy: yeah. 

Val: And just get it done. 

Dr Jeremy: what's awful about HS2 is they spent that money and we [00:49:00] got nothing. 

Val: Seen the damage. When I drive to Euston oh my 

Dr Jeremy: exactly. So what you would like even if they have to pull the plug at some point, because the cost is overwhelming. At least at the end of the day, you'd like to get something out of it, even if it's smaller than promised. But don't spend all that money and give us nothing. 

Val: But you also want a government to see something through. We've done big things. We did the Olympics. We've done, the Commonwealth Games. I remember when the dome was built. We've done major projects here. So they should know when they're digging and dig in. The likely to come across might come across Richard II in a car park or some artifact, then you have to stop and get the archeologists in. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: The likelihood is you're gonna find something when you dig down.

Dr Jeremy: A fact. 

Val: Thank God, the generation [00:50:00] before us who did the tube system didn't think, fuck, this is too much money. 

Dr Jeremy: Yes. I, and I think they probably didn't care too much about the archeological exhibits or findings.

Val: You can imagine the equipment they had then. And you look at that underground map. And think, bloody hell. This is what they did. It really is amazing. When you look at those things, they did things back then.

Yeah. They probably didn't care. Run over a badger or two, they probably didn't care. A badger hot. Yeah. Or whatever. Yeah, fine. But it gave us this amazing connection that you can travel from one end of London to the next. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: We need to find a way that we can not only do major and wonderful things that we're really good at, [00:51:00] but stop starting something and you can't finish it. That makes no sense. We're laughing stock. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Was it China that built a hospital in 10 days? 

Dr Jeremy: I'm not sure what's involved in that hospital but 

Val: they built it in 10 days. They probably had people around the clock. 

Dr Jeremy: Of course.

Val: Yeah. As one group has to sleep another one's in. But they did it. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Discipline, they did it, so let me quickly go back before, we've gotta stop 

Dr Jeremy: this. 

Val: Okay. Andy Burnham. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: If you ever hear this, call me. We need to talk what was that interview? 

Dr Jeremy: Okay. 

Val: Anyway, it's conference time and I will listen to the Prime Minister's speech. Can't wait. It's gonna be [00:52:00] great. 

Dr Jeremy: Good. 

Val: Let's end today.

Dr Jeremy: Yes. What would you say is your story labeled the misconception for today?

Val: Andy Burnham. Is that I, one misconception I think he fought by coming out and saying what he said, no 

no. Yeah. No. So my label wasn't, what could my label be for that?

Oh God. I don't know. Is that, I'm thinking they're all the same. I really thought he would be different. But the communication, 

Dr Jeremy: yeah. 

Val: So I'm labeling him, even though he's a mayor. 

And he is done wonderful things at Manchester. You can't take the politician out the mayor that was very politician of him. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: If that makes sense. 

Dr Jeremy: Okay. Makes sense 

Val: what about you, Dr. Jeremy? 

Dr Jeremy: Take home for today. The story about the, proposed link between paracetamol and autism, I think the label there [00:53:00] really is the notion of a correlation. Because they cited a correlation the misconception is that correlation means causation, and that's wrong. Correlation does not equal causation for all the reasons we talked about. And so I think that's an important lesson for people to just take away when in anything in life, when you see two things that seem to be related, that doesn't necessarily mean that one caused the other. It's often more complicated 

Val: yes. 

Dr Jeremy: I'll end there. 

Val: Thank you 

Dr Jeremy: yeah. 

Val: We've gone from painkillers to politics and we know stories get twisted fast. 

Speaker 4: Usually it goes from politics to painkillers. 

Val: The labels that can follow can shape how we think, vote, and even treat our health. Listeners, please share, tell us what you think and thank you for listening and we'll see you next week. 

Dr Jeremy: Yes. 

Val: This is so strange Today. England [00:54:00] versus Canada. 

Dr Jeremy: Oh, really? 

Val: Rugby World Cup. 

Dr Jeremy: Oh, wow. I didn't know that. I'll check that out. 

Val: And we'll see. Oh God.

England. Come on England ladies.

Val versus Dr. Jeremy. 

Dr Jeremy: I don't know how Canada does in women's rugby. 

Val: They did say, always the bridesmaid, but never the bride. And I shall leave it at that. 

Dr Jeremy: Very good. 

Val: Nice speaking with you again, Dr. Jeremy. 

Dr Jeremy: Thanks, 

Val: bye. 

Bye.