DISCONNECT IN POLITICS: UNDERSTANDING CLASS & OPPORTUNITY IN THE UK
===

[00:00:00] I remember when I said Margaret Thatcher, there's some something about pull up your bootstraps or something like that. Well, some people don't have the boots. Yeah. To pull up yourself, up your boots. Yeah. To pull themselves up. You have to have boots and bootstraps. You've gotta give the man and the woman the boots first.

Rap Intro: Stories, Labels Misconceptions NHS remains a blessing created in 1948. We want it to remain great. A pdcast Where we share our stories, explore solutions in all their glories they say its broken but its not done with your hosts Val Barrett & Dr Jeremy Anderson 

Yeah. Some people have the boots because their parents [00:01:00] have given them the boots. Their contacts have given them the boot. I don't believe it when people, not many people do everything 100% on their own. No, I mean, I had work in the past. Yeah. I've had work in the past because of somebody I knew. Mm-hmm. You know, when I was self-employed.

So when people say I, I'm self-employed, really. Self made. You know, it's No, no. I think you're right. I think of us are, are self.



Val: What I wanted to focus on today , the obsession with some politicians saying they are working class, this obsession to appeal. To a certain demographic by using that word, when people clearly look at them now and [00:02:00] think, well, you are earning a certain amount of money. 

Dr Jeremy: Mm-hmm.

Val: You've got this platform, are you really working class? So that's the debate I wanted to have a chat about. 


Dr Jeremy: Apparently, a lot of politicians are claiming to be working class.

Val: Mm-hmm. 

Dr Jeremy: And yeah. What does that mean? ,

Val: but , what does it mean to them? 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: This is the thing. And what does it mean nowadays? 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: I just thought it was working class, middle class, upper class elite. I don't know. But apparently there's seven levels. I can't even be bothered. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: I just want a classless society, but we seem to be in this country obsessed. 

Dr Jeremy: Mm-hmm. 

Val: And I think a lot of politicians here. are embarrassed.

Dr Jeremy: Mm-hmm. 

Val: To just come out loud and just say who they are, hence. 

Dr Jeremy: Mm-hmm. 

Val: When you look at Trump, he'll say, I'm a [00:03:00] billionaire. He doesn't care. Do people really care? 

Dr Jeremy: Yes. 

Val: Do you see what I mean? 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Do. They care? 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. But even Donald Trump, who was, was born into luxury. Right? 

Val: Yes. 

Dr Jeremy: And , his big thing when he was running for president the first time, he was arguing that he was a self-made man.

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: Nothing but a small loan from his father. Small. Million. 

Val: Well, that is small to him. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. But that's interesting, right? Like at least I think. Coming from Canada and with close proximity to the US the idea, the US myth, the American myth is , a self-made person like anybody could be,

Val: yes.

Dr Jeremy: Could get rich, 

Val: the American dream. 

Dr Jeremy: So when he went into politics. Okay. So that's what he's banking on. He's make America great again. This is the American dream. I'm an example of the American dream. Yeah. That's [00:04:00] why he's saying even though he's a billionaire 

Val: mm-hmm.

Dr Jeremy: , he tried to pretend he came from nothing. Okay. That's probably not what's happening in the UK though.

Val: No, no, no, no, no. Seems to be the reverse because I, 'cause I think it's, it's how society also. Relates. 

Dr Jeremy: Mm-hmm. 

Val: Because as we talk about the American dreams, Americans wanna be rich. They're not afraid to talk about money. 

Dr Jeremy: Mm-hmm. 

Val: Yeah. It's all this, , it's a land of opportunity. You can go out there and make it big, make loads and loads of money.

Dr Jeremy: Mm-hmm. 

Val: So that part doesn't bother them. But when you come to the UK 

Dr Jeremy: mm-hmm. 

Val: Money seems to be a big issue. One minute. , Rishi Sunna was too rich to be a pm. Mm-hmm. They get Kia Stormer in, he's supposed to be labour and look what's going on with him. I don't think it has to do with whether Rishi was a [00:05:00] billionaire mm-hmm. Or star. Mm-hmm. He's okay. I don't know. Yeah. I just think it's probably power. I think people at that level, they wanna keep their money in their pockets. Yeah. Because when you look at the rich, they'll still want freebies. Mm-hmm. The more freebies, the better. And if. Arsenal going to, give him freebie tickets to go and mm-hmm. Sit in the box. He'll take them. But then you look at the working class man. Mm-hmm. That goes to Arsenal at every match. Can he afford to sit in the box? I don't know. I think people are looking at this, disconnect. Mm-hmm. And I think politicians ought to blame for that also, because when they make out, oh, I'm just like you. My dad was a toolmaker. , your dad owned the company, [00:06:00] didn't he, you know, that makes a difference. And I think they hide what they really are. Mm-hmm. So when somebody comes along and says, , I'm working class. I was, and another thing, I hate working class. I was raised on a council estate I think that. Gives young people who were living on council states. Mm-hmm. I don't know if it's the opposite where it, I don't know the word, um, makes out to them that if you live there, you are less likely to succeed. 

Dr Jeremy: Mm-hmm. 

Val: Your postcode shouldn't matter. Your accent. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Shouldn't matter. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah.

Val: Where you went to school shouldn't matter, but we know in the UK that it does.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: So when you go for a job or you go to, or you wanna go to a better University, whether you went to a state school and you live on the [00:07:00] worst housing state ever, but you've passed all your exams, are they going to focus on where you live and the school that you went, as opposed to the person that is sitting there?

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: So I think we have a problem with how we see those things. And I think when we keep going on about housing state, when we spoke about housing is a house. It's just got the word estate. But then if you use the word estate on its own 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah.

Val: The rich will have estates. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: So it's how we see people because we're too obsessed with class. We're too obsessed with putting people in boxes and putting people in their places. 

Dr Jeremy: it occurs to me that even in Canada and the US, I don't think we even really use the terms so much like class, right? Like we used to talk about, or I think the term used to be kind of high class or low class, but then that became a slur. 

Val: Yeah, 

Dr Jeremy: We talk about working [00:08:00] class and, I don't know what's the term? Ruling class, but that even sounds kinda

Val: is it Elite?

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. The elites. And then we talked sort of blue collar, white collar,

Val: green collar, I don't know.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. And, I think now I heard the term, you know, is sort of people who live paycheck to paycheck. Yeah. Right. I don't know. Coming from, from Canada, I did have a sense that in this country there, the sense of the hierarchy and you are where you are, you're at a particular spot.

Val: Mm-hmm. 

Dr Jeremy: And don't you dare think you can try to get above the person

Val: Exactly. 

Dr Jeremy: Above you. Right? 

Val: Yeah. Yeah. Know your place. Know your station. Yeah. Yeah. Or something. Yeah. Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: Know your place. And I think. In the states or in Canada, the idea of like a rags to riches story.

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: Like Angela Rainer

Val: mm-hmm. Story mm-hmm. 

Dr Jeremy: Would be completely celebrated as this is great. Anybody can do this. 

Val: Yeah, 

Dr Jeremy: you can do it too. [00:09:00] 

Val: Exactly. 

Dr Jeremy: But here. It, I don't know. How does that land for you? , is it that same kind of anybody can do it if they just apply themselves? Or is it more like that's not supposed to happen?

Val: Well, it's changed I remember growing up under Thatcher, so I remember when she was. In power. So as a black woman, myself, I didn't see anybody that looked like me or was even from my background, from working class, having somebody like Angela Rainer will be an inspiration to young girls.

Dr Jeremy: Mm-hmm. 

Val: That a have an accent. Yeah. Because you didn't have people like her with an accent there. Have a regional accent, probably single mom, there's nothing to be ashamed of that. Um, young still wants to go, so I don't understand why they [00:10:00] slam her. For going out and having a good time. She's a young woman.

Dr Jeremy: Mm-hmm. 

Val: So there again, we are also dictating that when you get to a certain level in society, you are supposed to act like you've got a broomstick, rammed up your ass and just sit there and just do knitting or something. She wants to rave. Mm-hmm. Leave her alone. She wears shorts. So what. Did the world change because she went dancing? Did it change because she wore shorts and she had a nice time? No, it didn't. 

Dr Jeremy: No. 

Val: We focus on the wrong things and I think if somebody like her, certain people that are a bit snobbish mm-hmm. Probably just wanna knock her down a peg or two.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah, 

Val: that's basically what it is. 'cause somebody like her isn't supposed to be in that position, , 

Dr Jeremy: That's the example of somebody who started at a lower level in the hierarchy. 

Val: [00:11:00] Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: And made their way up. 

Val: Yeah. 

Val: But then I think what you were talking about was people who maybe started from a higher position wanting to kind of. Be perceived as, starting lower? 

I look at the things that are going on on Twitter X, whatever it's called now. Mm-hmm. And this British identity. And I think there might be still a problem with that. 'cause when you look at the US as about the land of opportunity and hope mm-hmm. They've always got the flag in their schools. And then you look at the UK people, some people are embarrassed by the flag. They don't dunno who they are. Um, we've got this white versus black, it's just getting worse. And they may talk about aspirations. But it's with a very small a 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah, 

Val: very small. A [00:12:00] 

Dr Jeremy: like it's impolite To strive too hard. 

Val: Yeah, aspirations to a certain point. Do you know what I mean? Because there's still this circle around the elite. The elite help the elite.

Dr Jeremy: Mm-hmm.

Val: When you go to the same school. You look at Eaton, I remember this woman was talking on the television the other day saying she would like more people in parliament that don't all go to the same school. Yeah. Well, there again, that's opportunity as well, because when you are, say you start off as a researcher.

Dr Jeremy: Mm-hmm. 

Val: For an MP, the likelihood is you'll get catapulted into a safe seat. 

Dr Jeremy: Okay. 

Val: Yeah. So how many people from working class backgrounds, quote unquote, or living in abject poverty, quote unquote, are researchers for [00:13:00] MPs? 

Dr Jeremy: I have no idea. 

Val: do you see what I mean? Everything.

Dr Jeremy: It's pretty low. 

Val: Yes. So everything's about opportunities and, what's that word? Oh, bloody hell. Who? You know all that nepotism. 

Dr Jeremy: Oh, nepotism. 

Val: Yeah. Yeah. Nepotism. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. Yeah. Sure. You know, not what you know. 

Val: Yeah. Yeah. Some, you know,, children of celebrities, children of politicians, whatever. Mm-hmm. You are unlikely to see them signing on. You are unlikely to find that so. We have so many barriers. There's so many things that are in the way of other people. Normal people that may not have a friend that's high up in government may not have that opportunity to work as a researcher, won't be able to afford an unpaid internship. Yeah. Yeah. Work afford to be an internship at [00:14:00] JP Morgan, but that's their dream. So again, the aspirations is with a very, very tiny a. Mm-hmm. Because we're still keeping those. That may have an aspiration with a capital A.

Val: Mm-hmm. With a cap, with a small a and we're keeping a, a certain group that should excel. We're keeping them up there. So it is like when I said to you before about, I remember when he said Margaret Thatcher, there's some, something about pull up your bootstraps or something like that. Mm-hmm. Well, some people don't have the boots.

Val: Yeah, to pull up the, pull yourself up by your boots straps to pull themselves up. 

Dr Jeremy: You have to have boots. In order to have bootstraps. Yeah. 

Val: You've gotta give the man and the woman the boots first. Yeah. Some people have the boots because their parents have given them the boots. Yeah. Their contacts have given [00:15:00] them the boots. , not many people do everything 100% on their own. I mean, I had work in the past. I've had work in the past because of somebody I knew. Mm-hmm. You know, when I was self-employed. So when people say I, I'm self-made, really? Are you self-made? You know, it's

Dr Jeremy: No, no. I think you're right. I think none of us are completely self-made. I mean, all of it comes down to all the things that you don't even recognise, have contributed to that. So, for example, 

Val: mm-hmm. 

Dr Jeremy: Even just having a government that, has regulations in place to prevent corruption, right?

Val: Mm-hmm. 

Dr Jeremy: So , you know, to open your business, you didn't have to pay a bribe, right? Like, that's, that's, that's a barrier you never faced.

Val: Uhhuh. 

Dr Jeremy: I'm not saying you personally, right? 

Val: Uhhuh. 

Dr Jeremy: But do you know what I mean? Like, there's lots of things that contribute to the success [00:16:00] 

Val: mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 

Dr Jeremy: Of a person. Doing a thing 

Val: of course, 

Dr Jeremy: that they won't even know because they won't have a problem they didn't even know they, could have had, right. And so I think the so-called self-made men and women, I. You need to recognise that. Yeah. 


Val: Kemi Badenoch, so she, I think she was raised middle class, 

Dr Jeremy: Okay. 

Val: Then I think at 16 or 17 she went to work in McDonald's. 

Dr Jeremy: Okay. 

Val: Nothing wrong with that. She's young. Yeah. Go. and flip burger. I've done it. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. Me too. 

Val: So she believed that made her working class. I believe that grounded her backside. That's what I believe. I think that brought her down to earth. That's what it did. I don't think it made her working class at all. I don't know if changing jobs [00:17:00] can bring you down a class I don't know.

Dr Jeremy: I mean, if you're, as she said, if she's raised middle class 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: Right. 

Val: Mm-hmm. 

Dr Jeremy: If her parents are, feeding her and putting a roof over her head. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: If she also goes to work and makes some money 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: That doesn't immediately make her working class. 

Val: No. Mm-hmm. 

Dr Jeremy: And that doesn't change jurisdiction, you know, 

Val: because a mindset, everything and a life at home. Isn't going to change. Yeah. She's not gonna suddenly move into the worst day ever on the 16th floor where the lift doesn't work and surrounded by drug addicts. Her life wouldn't have drastically changed because she's flipping the burger. 

Dr Jeremy: Exactly. You know, disclosure about myself. I also started working at McDonald's when I was 14. I was raised in a middle class home 

Val: Uhhuh 

Dr Jeremy: and, I started working. 

Val: So you are even say in middle class? 

Dr Jeremy: I guess so, yeah. I would say middle [00:18:00] class.

Val: Why do you say middle class? 

Dr Jeremy: I guess I was thinking, I know I said we don't really use class in Canada or the US 

Val: mm-hmm. 

Dr Jeremy: But I think we do, I think middle class is a term that was used to refer to people who are, , certainly not like at the poverty line or below the poverty line. But they're not sort of wealthy either. You know, you're not living off your stock trades. Right?

Val: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr Jeremy: You're working for a living, right? You work and you pay your taxes, and that's considered middle class. And one thing they do talk about in the US and Canada is the shrinking middle class or the hollowing out of the middle class, right?

Val: Mm-hmm. 

Dr Jeremy: The idea that more people who were middle class before are slipping into poverty. 

Val: Okay. 

Dr Jeremy: Because. Those middle class jobs are disappearing or their wages aren't increasing, 

Val: how do you define poverty? 

Dr Jeremy: I think in Canada, there would be a specific level set 

Val: mm-hmm. 

Dr Jeremy: According [00:19:00] to, inflation and prices and things whereby you can. Meet all your needs. 

Val: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Dr Jeremy: All your basic needs , can be met. So 

Val: yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: If you earn above that amount, you're not in poverty. If you earn below that amount, you're in poverty. 

Val: What are your basic needs? 

Dr Jeremy: I would say food, clothing, shelter. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: If you can afford to keep a roof over your head and food the table mm-hmm. And you have clothes to wear. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: That's what you need to do. Right. 

Val: So you wouldn't class that as poverty. If you've got those basic things,

Dr Jeremy: I wouldn't, I don't know what the government definition of it is. But the idea that if you're in the middle class 

Val: mm-hmm.

Dr Jeremy: That you're working for a living, but you're not in poverty. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: You know, if you have a kid who then goes and works at McDonald's 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: And they're earning money, they don't suddenly become. Below the poverty line because wage, 

Val: she just got humbled wage. That's all right. She humbled.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: She probably taught posh there anyway. So [00:20:00] 

Dr Jeremy: yeah, all it meant was you have a source of earning money and you don't have any expenses. It's all disposable income. 

Val: Exactly. 

Dr Jeremy: At that level.

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: but it seems to me like. A politician saying, I was middle class or, and then I, I slipped into poverty or working class or, or something like that.

Val: it's like they're taking the piss. 

Dr Jeremy: They're trying to, it would seem like there's, they're trying to make a parallel between their, experience. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: And they're kind of framing it in the same as if they were like these voters who. Are either, see themselves as having been in the middle

Val: mm-hmm.

Dr Jeremy: And slipped into poverty, or they fear that, right? 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: So they're trying to appeal to that sort of nervous voter who's concerned about their level, framing it in a similar way, but their experience is very different. 

Val: Of [00:21:00] course. But do you want your politician? To have experienced the exact same things of as you. Is that What we want are we saying that our prime minister, our mps must of all lived on the worst housing estate, come from a single parent, know what it is like to be poor, whether they went without Sky TV or they worked at McDonald's at 16. Is this what we want our politicians to be?

Dr Jeremy: I think we want our politicians to be able to relate, right? Because , the whole role of a politician or of a representative is to say, you have needs, you can't bring it to Parliament or something directly, so I represent you. Mm-hmm. So you want your representative to actually understand what you're going through.

Val: But as doesn't, as a psychologist for somebody to understand what you're going through. Does it mean they have to have gone through it, themselves? [00:22:00] 

Dr Jeremy: No. I mean, it, it does help in a specific instance, but there's no representative who can experience everything. 

Val: Everything. No. Isn't 

Dr Jeremy: isn't person could have gone through . What you need , is someone who has experienced just enough to be able to, I guess kind of check their own assumptions or just recognise that. I need to not make assumptions. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: And just try to understand. 

Val: But doesn't that go with who they surround themselves with their advisors? Because if they've got advisors that's haven't experienced anything and they haven't experienced what most people have gone through, how are they going to make better decisions? 'cause we go back to when Covid happened. Yeah. And when they were talking about the lockdown, I cannot remember the woman's name when at the inquiry she said nobody thought about people being locked down with their abusers. [00:23:00] There was nobody in the room that brought that to the table. So it says a lot. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: When the voices are the same. So to me. It's more about the voices around them. As well as them. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Because you've got two types of politicians. You've got the career politician and you've got the conviction politician.

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: You had politicians like Tony Ben, who was Rich Big House I think was in Holland Park, but he was a conviction politician, I don't know if we've got that anymore. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Each generation wants something different from their politicians. There was a time when people were happy. Mm-hmm. That they had the elite lording it over us. People were happy, people were okay. Then the next generation, they want something different. Yeah. More people from certain backgrounds are [00:24:00] more involved in politics. Yeah. And more active. So we want to have something more representative Yeah. Of the community that they serve. Whether that's, culturally gender, their life experience. We want somebody that has lived a life. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. I think definitely some varied experience.

Val: Mm-hmm.

Dr Jeremy: is important even though you're never gonna get. Representatives , who've had the full spectrum of 

Val: No, no, no. You're not 

Dr Jeremy: of human experience. Just, I mean, some variation is, is good. And then I think just in general, so just to go back to the lockdown example, right? So they didn't consider what the impact of lockdown would have on domestic violence. Right. What did you mental health with your abuser. But even if they had considered Yeah, you know, domestic violence, maybe they wouldn't have considered. Don't know. Alcoholism or as you say, mental health or, 

Val: mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Dr Jeremy: Depression [00:25:00] or, I don't know. Asthma. , like, or, you know, getting stuck.

Val: Mm-hmm. 

Dr Jeremy: At home when you've got black mold in the walls. 

Val: Exactly. No garden overcrowded on the 16th floor of a tower block. 

Dr Jeremy: Mean, you can consider lots of options.

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: There's always gonna be some options you didn't consider. 

Val: Mm-hmm. 

Dr Jeremy: So really , what people need to recognise is yes, you want to consider as many things as possible. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: But just recognise that there will be things you haven't thought of. 

Val: Of course there's no perfect system. But when you don't have a variety of voices in the room, there's a lot more options you are going to miss out. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. So there's things by having that variety 

Val: mm-hmm. 

Dr Jeremy: There's a lot of things that you will not miss that way. But then you're always gonna miss something. So you build in a kind of a feedback mechanism right. Into the system. . To say, to say, when we notice this thing that we hadn't thought of, 

Val: yeah. [00:26:00] 

Dr Jeremy: We're gonna correct it as soon as possible. I think that's the best thing you can do. 

Val: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's always gonna be mistakes made. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah.

Val: It's how you rectify that mistake. 

Dr Jeremy: Yes. 

Val: And instead of. Blaming someone else. There's no ownership. Yeah. Of any of those things. Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: You asked me, as a psychologist. 

Val: Mm-hmm. 

Dr Jeremy: I'll give you an example of the ethical framework, the ethical train training that I get as a psychologist, right? So when I'm faced with an ethical dilemma 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: There's a series of steps that I have to follow. And we're trained to do this one of the steps. So basically you have to figure out what the issues are, what is the dilemma here, right? So for example, you know, do I breach confidentiality or not?

Val: Okay. 

Dr Jeremy: You're not supposed to, but what if the person's in danger? I have to weigh that. And who's vulnerable? Me? The patient's vulnerable. Maybe they've made a threat against somebody else. That person's vulnerable. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: [00:27:00] I have to weigh the pros and cons. I have to come up with a decision. I have to take a decision. And then after that's not the end. Right. I have to evaluate the effect of that decision. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: And figure out did I actually resolve the dilemma or the conflict? And if I did, great. But if something happened maybe that I didn't consider, I have to go through the whole process again.

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: And revise my behavior based on what I know now. So that's just an example of how it's built right. Into the system of decision making. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: And I think, if that system is, that kind of thing isn't in place with our politicians and the decisions they make. It should be. And if it is already in place, I think politicians could do a better job of articulating this is what we're doing. We're gonna screw up, we're gonna make mistakes. Yeah, there's gonna be things we can think of, but here's what we're doing to try to fix it as much as possible. 

Val: But I also think one of the things that pisses off [00:28:00] most of us is it seems to benefit those that already have. Yeah. And benefit the rich. 

Dr Jeremy: Power is inherently conservative. 

Val: Well, of course it is. 

Dr Jeremy: If the current system is working for me and my pals, then I want the current system to keep on going. Yeah. 

Val: How can you take all these freebies? 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: And cut off the winter allowance for the elderly. Beggar's belief sorry, we talked before. It's about priorities. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: It's about the will. I'm sure there was other things that they could have done, I don't know. But to go at the elderly. The elderly, the generation that live through the wall live through the blitz.

Dr Jeremy: Mm-hmm. 

Val: The generation that held this country together. When they were young and were told that they would be looked after. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: That group, the [00:29:00] ones that need it. Yeah. And it is, it is sad. It's,

Dr Jeremy: it seems mean to just be turning off the heat in the winter. 

Val: It's it is, it's the heating allowance.

Dr Jeremy: Sure. If, if you have some. Fabulously wealthy, older person, okay. Yeah. Those people don't need a heating allowance. Right? 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: But for the people who need it, it just seems mean. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: To say, well, we gotta be fair here, so we're going to, we're taking it away from everybody 

Val: because we're talking about the generation that don't like debt.

Dr Jeremy: What we talked about before with, the heating prescription scheme, right? 

Val: Oh yes. 

Dr Jeremy: That was , if these elderly people with s conditions 

Val: Exactly. 

Dr Jeremy: With heat on . They stay outta the hospital. Right. Yeah. And what are we struggling with 

Val: exactly?

Dr Jeremy: Too many people come into hospital. 

Val: yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: What in the world are you cutting off the heat at the very moment where you want to keep people at a hospital? Makes no [00:30:00] sense. 

Val: We just don't think of policies in a holistic way. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: So when they look at this policies, okay, we're cutting the winter bill, the payment, which we know it will eventually impact. On the NHS. We know the NHS is worse in the winter. We already know that. So if we are dealing with the elderly and the frail, they're less likely to be discharged if they're living alone. , as the government like to say, I don't like the word, but I'm gonna use it, quote unquote, bed blockers.

Dr Jeremy: Yep. 

Val: And these people are. Bed blockers because you've made them that. Because you haven't given them adequate resources to stay Well, 

Dr Jeremy: yes. 

Val: And all [00:31:00] they have to do one hand, give them the heating. Mm-hmm. Give them the resources. More district nurses, whatever you, , wanna call them. And look at freeing up beds in the NHS. Mm-hmm. For people that are sick, for people that will get sick, not for people that can't be discharged because they need care. Do you see what I mean? 

Dr Jeremy: Yes. 

Val: Who are well enough to go home, but they can't discharge them. Yes. But they don't look at things like that. They'll wait. Yeah. Until winter comes. Yeah. And then all of a sudden the flu season. Yeah. And they'll be shocked that people will get flu. Yeah. Because we are living longer. Yeah. I have a health condition myself. We are more likely to get flu, are more likely to want a bed because of the other conditions that I [00:32:00] have.

Dr Jeremy: Mm-hmm. 

Val: We don't prepare. There should be a template. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: I don't know if there is. I'm just saying.

Dr Jeremy: At the same time we're talking about, the NHS 

Val: mm-hmm. 

Dr Jeremy: Reform and whatnot. And, and that's true. You know, the NHS is struggling, but the NHS and the Winter Fuel payment, they're not actually two different issues.

Val: No, 

Dr Jeremy: they're two different budgets. 

Val: Yeah. 

Dr Jeremy: But they're the same people. 

Val: Same. 

Dr Jeremy: It's the same people involved. 

Val: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Dr Jeremy: We need to think about them together. Yeah. 

Val: Anyway, I wanna end on something a bit. Okay. Weird. Let's, yeah. So found the article in The Spectator. Mm-hmm. Um, can't find the name, the person that wrote it. I'm so sorry. And it's about Kemi Badenoch

Dr Jeremy: mm-hmm. 

Val: She said, now I come from a middle class background, but even before the age of 16, I understood the concept of washing toilets. 

Dr Jeremy: [00:33:00] Mm-hmm. 

Val: I think she needs a round of applause for that.

Dr Jeremy: I've, I've washed a few toilets in my time. 

Val: Yeah. 'cause I use them, so I washed them. Yeah. Okay. Well done to her. I had notice the word had. Mm-hmm. Had I had working class friends from Labroke Grove, and none of them had special, none of them had special cleaners coming in. What special cleaners?

Dr Jeremy: I don't know what A special cleaner,

Val: I dunno what a special cleaner is. I'd listen to this part. I even knew how to handle money. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It just goes on and on. Well done to her. So from reading that, I imagine that she probably had special cleaners coming into her parents. I don't know.

Dr Jeremy: Hmm. 

Val: They [00:34:00] were her friends. Yeah. They're probably not anymore. I dunno why. Yeah. But that's such a weird thing to say. Why don't these people have any emotional intelligence? Yeah. Why aren't these people more self-aware?

Val: Yeah. Even if you think that, don't say it. 

Dr Jeremy: Yeah. 

Val: Please. Anyway, Jeremy. 

Dr Jeremy: Okay. 

Val: We've had a nice chat. 

Dr Jeremy: Okay, great talking 

Val: and we will be back again. Absolutely. Next week. Bye. Okay, take care.